Performance chip

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby 9W6VX on Mon, 11 Jan 2010 8:59 +0000

Rod,

I am concerned about the numbers you are getting with your probe installed post-turbo.

600 degrees Celsius seems high if the probe is at the dump pipe. However, I do note that you were heavily loaded at that time which influences your EGT reading.

My personal guideline has always been to never exceed 520 deg Celsius post-turbo or 720 deg pre-turbo.

Have a look at the following links.

http://www.thermoguard.com.au/index.html
(I remembered that when I first started using the pyrometer years back, I found the info from the above link coupled with advise given to me by some of my mates who were then very active in rallying.)

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71646

http://www.exploroz.com/Vehicle/Technic ... gines.aspx

http://www.steves.co.za/Engine_Protection_Units_1.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ ... index.html

The above links concur that there is a approximate drop of about 300 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit or 150 to 200 degrees Celsius between post-turbo and pre-turbo of probe location.

The links concur that the general maximum limit for pre-turbo is about 1,250 to 1,300 deg Fahrenheit or 680 to 700 deg Celsius.

Therefore the generally safe range for post-turbo probe would be approximately 850 to 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit or approximately 500 to 550 degrees Celsius.


I am NOT saying that my numbers are gospel but those are the numbers that I have been using.

My humble 2 cents worth.
Cheers

Brendon
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby tonymtber on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 5:54 +0000

Yes, 550 degrees is the number I've always used. I think the higher figures (ie 600 to 650) are OK occasionally, but again it really depends who you talk to. Rule of thumb is the lower you can keep the EGT the less stress on the engine = longer life.

One thing Rod, as yours is an auto, I gather that you cant hold a high gear under heavy load at low RPM (I have never owned an auto). To really test the max EGT's the engine can develop, its really best to load the engine in a high gear at low RPM with full throttle (ie 4th gear up a big hill that the engine cant maintain...).

With the modern engines high EGT's should not be a real issue as the engine management system should maintain a good air/fuel mixture & prevent excessive over fueling. With the inclusion of a chip, I would think (& hope) that the air/fuel mixture is being maintained & that the chip is only changing injector timing, duration etc.

I'll do some testing on my vehicle when I get the chip (how far away Rod?) & will keep you posted.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 7:19 +0000

Thanks guys. This is great feedback. It has always concerned me that the level of boost I saw on the dyno might lead to excessive EGT's if fitted to a stock car with no modifications to the exhaust or air filter. It is hard for me to get out of town on the open road (I hate cities! :evil: ) but I was hoping the 5-6 hour trip to Coffs in a couple of weeks would be an ideal test run as the vehicle will be loaded at or beyond the GVM and I hope there are a few hills in between.

I have not cleared the memory since the weekend and so far this week, the highest temp I have hit is 474 degrees which was off the mark from a red light in an 80 K zone first thing Monday morning.

I have yet to gather some data on peak temps with the chip disabled and I think that we need to see this data before you can make a call on the momentary peak temps. I think it is also worth mentioning that my EGT Gauge is a precision digital laboratory instrument and not subjected to the dampening applied by a normal auto gauge discussed in one of the the links so I suspect the peaks are much more apparent as even if they are only reached for a fraction of a second, they will be logged.

I might add that no other chips on the market have been subjected to the level of public scruitiny I have let mine be subjected to, so if it survives armchair testing by you guys, I think it can be installed with confidence. Remember we are looking at a stock motor and exhaust so it will be interesting to see what changes an air filter and exhaust will bring to the EGT's.

As regards the Air Fuel ratio, from what I have gathered from talking to all of the dyno places I rang about testing a diesel engine and as discussed in one of the links above, this is largely irrelevant on a common rail engine, the EGT reigns supreme.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby jop on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 7:32 +0000

Plent of hills through northern nsw on the way to coffs rod :twisted:

Is a triton equivalent available or lux only?
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 7:39 +0000

jop wrote:Plent of hills through northern nsw on the way to coffs rod :twisted:

Is a triton equivalent available or lux only?


Jop,

Yes, that's what I thought!

Sorry, this chip is only for the Toyota D4D diesel engine, but I am looking for one for you guys that won't break the bank!
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby tonymtber on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 2:19 +0000

rodw wrote:
I might add that no other chips on the market have been subjected to the level of public scruitiny I have let mine be subjected to, so if it survives armchair testing by you guys, I think it can be installed with confidence. Remember we are looking at a stock motor and exhaust so it will be interesting to see what changes an air filter and exhaust will bring to the EGT's.

As regards the Air Fuel ratio, from what I have gathered from talking to all of the dyno places I rang about testing a diesel engine and as discussed in one of the links above, this is largely irrelevant on a common rail engine, the EGT reigns supreme.


Hi Rod,
High EGT's are largely the result of incorrect Air Fuel ratios. With a common rail engine the ECU should be maintaining correct Air Fuel ratios as it monitors the air & fuel constantly. With the designers of these engines it would be pretty simple for them to include a pyro connected to the ECU but they obviously dont see the need as the ECU should be doing its job anyway & keeping the EGT within a safe level without the need to monitor it. With the addition of any chip or modification to the ECU, you are changing the factory parameters to get more performance, so its really a matter of how far you can go before its gets to an unsafe level.

Unfortunately when it comes to EGT's there is no industry standard. Some manufacturers work on actual combustion temps, others at the exhaust manifold, & others post turbo. Also there can be quite a variance between each cylinder (generally the center cylinders are hotter). The probe post turbo (where most of us fit them) is a good guide to what is going on inside the cylinder....putting a bigger exhaust on will reduce the temps in the exhaust, but will not make any difference to the temp inside the cylinder.

I did have a heap of documents on tuning diesels & the effect of inlet temps, inter cooling temps, EGT etc etc (which mainly apply to tuning of mechanically injected diesels) but principles still apply to our modern engines. I'll see if I can find them & if your interested I can send you a copy if you are technically minded.

Either way, you should be pretty confident that your chip is not going to change anything too much.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby Harves on Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:57 +0000

Hay rodw,
Have you done any more testing as to how the temps go with the chip. Be good to see what its like with the chip on/off testing. I also am interested on the chip but as i ocassionally pull an expanda van, heading up hills can make the EGT climb very quickly and wouldn't like to be in an unsafe zone.

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:44 +0000

Harves wrote:Hay rodw,
Have you done any more testing as to how the temps go with the chip. Be good to see what its like with the chip on/off testing. I also am interested on the chip but as i ocassionally pull an expanda van, heading up hills can make the EGT climb very quickly and wouldn't like to be in an unsafe zone.

Cheers,
Harves


Yes mate, so far the temps have been all good and I have got some tech info from a couple of sources that indicate the temps the D4D engine and turbo can handle are a lot higher than suggested by some in this thread.

Sounds like you have a Pyro fitted already. What peak temps are you seeing now when towing?
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby Harves on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 7:02 +0000

No rodw, had one in my old landcruiser. I think i seen a top of 550 deg.

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 7:11 +0000

Harves wrote:No rodw, had one in my old landcruiser. I think i seen a top of 550 deg.

Cheers,
Harves


Harves, Did the landcruiser have a factroy turbo?

My research indicated that engines built to handle a factory fitted turbo could handle higher temps. If you had an aftermarket turbo, I don't think your old Landcruiser experience is relevant against the D4D engine.

Some material indicated that 737 degrees was a critical temp! Other experts said back off when you hit 700 degrees. The VMN chip to and from Coffs generally stayed under 550 degrees and once or twice climbed a bit higher when trying to pass a car on big hills.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby shane308 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 7:23 +0000

rod were the experts that said back off at 700dc aware that the probe was post turbo ?
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 7:28 +0000

shane308 wrote:rod were the experts that said back off at 700dc aware that the probe was post turbo ?


Yes, I asked the same question, but let me assure you there is no way I would go that high
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby shane308 on Mon, 25 Jan 2010 7:32 +0000

thats good then, i wouldn't knowingly let it go that high either but it good to know there is a big buffer zone there.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby noodle on Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:46 +0000

I don't have a chip fitted (yet), but I have a EGR gauge. The highest reading I have seen to date was around 450 degrees. That was me trying to work the engine hard by going up a long hill in 4th at around 40-50km/h.
Normal driving around the hills of Canberra has seen it peak at about 400, normal between 250-380 degrees. The outside temps have been in the mid 30's as well

I haven't towed anything substancial as yet, but I'm guessing I won't get anywhere near 550......
the driving style will change to suit the load I'm carrying, so I wouldn't put the engine under too much strain at very low revs.

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Tue, 26 Jan 2010 2:21 +0000

noodle wrote:I don't have a chip fitted (yet), but I have a EGR gauge. The highest reading I have seen to date was around 450 degrees. That was me trying to work the engine hard by going up a long hill in 4th at around 40-50km/h.
Normal driving around the hills of Canberra has seen it peak at about 400, normal between 250-380 degrees. The outside temps have been in the mid 30's as well

I haven't towed anything substancial as yet, but I'm guessing I won't get anywhere near 550......
the driving style will change to suit the load I'm carrying, so I wouldn't put the engine under too much strain at very low revs.

Al


Noodle. The factory EGT's will go a lot higher than that. I my testing, I saw 542 degrees with factory tuning before I backed off as I wa over the speed limit. I don't think it will have any problems pushing it to 550 degrees from the factory. Common sense says if you boost performance with more fuel, it has to increase EGT's.

I really like the audible alarm as I have set it at what I think is a safe level and back off if it goes off. In my 800 km round trip to Coffs with the vehicle loaded to or beyond the GVM, the alarm only went off 3 times, once when I was showing off with Jop behind me on a steep hill and the other times when I tried to pass a car at the top of a long steep climb when the Diesel really had run out of legs... I am now satisfied I am not selling you guys a bum steer!

I will have more stock of VMN Chips later this week as they cleared customs yesterday. Grab them while you can. They won't last long...
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby D4D Hilux on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 3:57 +0000

how much for the chips mate?
Cheers, Ryan

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 4:19 +0000

D4D Hilux wrote:how much for the chips mate?


Sorry, this thread has been rambling on a bit.

$915 delivered as announced here viewtopic.php?f=62&t=4763&start=175
Stock arrived today so they won't last long. At least this time I managed to get some in the country before they all sold out :D

I'll do my best to ship those ordered by the weekend.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby D4D Hilux on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 5:12 +0000

OK, might be a bit of a random question, but what would everyone recommend? i can get a 2nd hand DP chip for $650,

Do they "wear out" so to speak, is there any advantages/disadvantages to buying this 2nd hand one over say one like you have rod other than the fact that yours is new??

Just there is an opportunity for me to save a bit of coin, don't see why a chip that has been in a car for only a year or so wouldn't do the job??? thoughts/comments???

PS sorry to hi-jack the thread mate
Cheers, Ryan

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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby rodw on Thu, 28 Jan 2010 8:53 +0000

Well mate, you'd have to make the decision yourself. Electronics are likley to be fairly reliable and you will have to weigh that up v's a 2 year warranty on a new chip from me. I don't want to bag another product and suggest you do a search on the DP chip and limp home problems. The DP chip increases the fuel pressure v's independent injection timing which is regarded as superior technology (used on the VMN and Steinbauer).

Some chips that increase the fuel pressure have been quite unreliable and trigger limp home mode fairly regularly on some vehicles. I have yet to see my VMN chip drop into limp home mode and I have tried very hard to achieve this!

The best guy to ask about the two options would be GHG as he has driven my VMN chipped car and his old vehicle with the DP chip in it on the one day over the same road.

If you do decide to go with mine just send me a PM and I'll have one out to you next week once we sort out payment details.
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Re: VMN Diesel Performance Chip - Group buy ** January Special**

Postby jogal on Fri, 29 Jan 2010 1:30 +0000

Go the VMN mate i had 3 DP chips fail in my last lux . I've been running the Steinbaur for almost a couple of years now without an issue VMN wasn't around when i purchased it . For what their worth they seem to be the way to go.
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