Front v's rear locker

[Boof]

Shad nice vid but I reckon a Hilux would do that track unlocked surely the 80 is an inferior vehicle j/k

Nice to see this debate is over here also, the age old question that will never have a true answer

[KTM525EXC]

here is some info i found off the 4wd systems website:


Q7. Which end should I fit first? (if buying one)This is dependent on the vehicle, its existing diff types, the type of suspension system and the model availability. However the front is usually the first choice.

a. If the vehicle is an IFS (Independent Front Suspension) model then the front fitment will result in the greatest increase in 4WD ability. This is because all IFS vehicles have very limited suspension movement (hence limited wheel travel and articulation) resulting in easily lifted wheels and total loss of front traction. Fitting a LOKKA to the front will solve this serious deficiency. (Pajero, Isuzu, 4Runner, B2600 etc)

b. If a vehicle has a good quality LSD in the rear, then a front fitment will obviously provide the best total traction ie one locker and one LSD is better than one locker and one standard diff. (GQ)

c. If a vehicle has a poor quality LSD then the issue becomes less clear and personal preference or ease of installation often become the more important criteria. However one LSD and one locker is still a better choice - if that is possible. (Landcruiser, Hilux, F100/150)

d. If the vehicle is a constant 4WD then a rear fitment is the easiest and best solution (Landcruiser 80,100 series etc)

e. A front fitment will actually yield the greatest improvement in off road ability. This is because, most vehicles require the increase in traction (that a locker gives) when hill climbing. Under hill climbing conditions, due to the angle of the vehicle, the rear wheels are carrying a much greater weight (weight transfer) and the front wheels are therefore carrying a lessor weight and tend to break traction very easily. Once one front wheel starts to spin, the other front wheel stops turning and the whole front diff ceases to provide traction. At this point all load is transferred onto the rear as if it were a 2WD and due to the increased load the rear wheels are encouraged to spin and the vehicle stops.
If you can solve the problem of the front wheels spinning, you have solved the traction problem. Another advantage is that on road there are no changes to normal driving characteristics at all.

[Hilux Max]

I agree

[Quinny34]

Point e was interesting... I never quite thought of it that way... in fact, I'd have gone the rear if I'd normally carry more weight in the back. Now Im really glad I went the way I did....

[Hilux Max]

Point E is the main reason I put a front locker in.....you have a rear lsd.....as long as its working....and you should be able to go almost anywhere you want with that setup.

that and the last thing you want is a front spinning tyre to land and instantly grab traction.....BANG!

[Quinny34]

Was more the load shifting principle... I'd have to agree with how it would work as described above but it wouldn't have occured to me otherwise...

[pootrol]

whats the results from the mag about the 05 hilux. not keen on having to buy it to read one article.

[wat700]

G'day Pootrol,

Essentially they said it is most important to have the locker where the weight is.

In their tests the hilux with the rear locker engaged either got further or got there with less struggle then when it had the front locker engaged.

They also seemed to say that a locker in the back is most useful as it is when you're going up slopes rather than down them that you need lockers the most. Given when you're going up a slope most of your weight is at the rear and you often get your front wheels off the ground (particularly with IFS) they thought the push of the rear locker was more valuable than the pull of the front. Even if only one of the rear wheels is on the ground the weight on it is more than sufficient to guarantee traction - unlike the front.

Either way they said that any locker would improve your offroad performance markedly. The purpose of the test was to determine which one to get if you only had the dollars for one. The lockers tested were both ARB air lockers. They did say that they're going to look at testing auto lockers as part of a similar test in the next issue or two (still waiting for this).

Hope that helps a bit. I'm not overly mechanically minded - hence why I read the magazines!

Strongly recommend grabbing a copy of the mag - particularly for this article but also for some of the others.

Cheers,

Watto

[Alby]

ARB told me that about 80% of the lockers they fit are rear ones.

[9W6VX]

Moving to drive train components and making it a sticky.

[hodgo81]

I just read the entire thread and dont think it got covered... but its along the lines of The SR not having ADD and front lockers.

Do the Auto lockers have the same amount of moving parts as the SR?
so if fitting one to an SR5 you end up having lots of moving parts like us SR drivers?

Of the selectable front diff locks is ARB air lockers the only choice for 05+ luxs?
Will any/all of the selectable front diff lockers disconnect more parts then the standard SR drive train? meaning I will get longer life out of all the other drive train parts?

and finally, a bit left field, but it did get mentioned ealier.... has anyone found a kit for freewheeling hubs yet????? I'd love to have freehubs again

[Batman]

Do the Auto lockers have the same amount of moving parts as the SR? An ADD has more parts than the SR diff, but disconnects one axle stopping drive and therefore more parts are idle during 2WD operation

so if fitting one to an SR5 you end up having lots of moving parts like us SR drivers?I think what you mean is, if fitting a locker to an SR5 will it affect the ADD operation - the answer is only if it is engaged. when the diff is open (locker off) it operates as normal

Of the selectable front diff locks is ARB air lockers the only choice for 05+ luxs? I think TJM do a front and rear locker for 05+ diffs

Will any/all of the selectable front diff lockers disconnect more parts then the standard SR drive train? meaning I will get longer life out of all the other drive train parts? Fitting a locker won't change the operation of your SR diff if not engaged

and finally, a bit left field, but it did get mentioned ealier.... has anyone found a kit for freewheeling hubs yet????? I'd love to have freehubs again No-one I know of does a FWH for the 05+ Hilux, the hub design, due to the drive mechanism - CV joint via half shaft - doesn't really lend itself to FWH.

Hope these answers help.

Steve.

[Hilux Max]

There are moves currently in the US to start designing and making free wheeling hubs for the FJ cruisers.....wont be cheap...bout 1500 - 2000 for the conversion. I think they were going to use a Chevy or dodge bearing design because it was very similar to what is needed.....let me have a quick look...........

Here we go....it is a Dodge kit....

The Dodge factory bearing setup is pretty near identical to the Toyota. So this is what the kit would basically be I am assuming. Longer CV output shaft instead of a yoke style output. This kit would also give you the ability to have manual hubs. Something we all would like to have to save on uneeded wear on compnents. More importantly though if this kit were to come out our front wheel bearing issues would be illiminated and the bearings would be servicable. Price is looking to be between $1500-$2000. I find that resonable because when the crappy wheel bearings pile it can take out a ton of expensive parts that can equal more than the price of the kit.

Ill try and dig up some more info tomorrow.

[hodgo81]

Do the Auto lockers have the same amount of moving parts as the SR? An ADD has more parts than the SR diff, but disconnects one axle stopping drive and therefore more parts are idle during 2WD operation

so if fitting one to an SR5 you end up having lots of moving parts like us SR drivers?I think what you mean is, if fitting a locker to an SR5 will it affect the ADD operation - the answer is only if it is engaged. when the diff is open (locker off) it operates as normal

Of the selectable front diff locks is ARB air lockers the only choice for 05+ luxs? I think TJM do a front and rear locker for 05+ diffs

Will any/all of the selectable front diff lockers disconnect more parts then the standard SR drive train? meaning I will get longer life out of all the other drive train parts? Fitting a locker won't change the operation of your SR diff if not engaged

and finally, a bit left field, but it did get mentioned ealier.... has anyone found a kit for freewheeling hubs yet????? I'd love to have freehubs again No-one I know of does a FWH for the 05+ Hilux, the hub design, due to the drive mechanism - CV joint via half shaft - doesn't really lend itself to FWH.

Hope these answers help.

Steve.

Thanks for the reply.
I Understand the ADD system has more parts. I was talking about less moving parts = parts that create drivetrain resistance/load/wear. So my question is do the auto lockers still have the same amount of parts hooked up and rolling in 2wd as the standard SR? or is it a little more like an ADD system?

Or is a better example to say the ADD system like a air locker...but nowhere near as good. ie it has completly open diff on one side and then when ADD or air locker locks the hub all parts move together, albiet the locker system does a much better job.

The reason behind my line of questions is I'm p'ed off at Toyota for tricking me into thinking my front diff was disconnected like the suzuki system talked about earlier. and I am considering a front locker system that lets me have a genuine open diff in 2wd. Because thats how it should have been built!!!

[Hilux Max]

join the boat about being tricked.......I too thought they were free wheeling hubs of some sort when I bought it only to find out later that they weren't.....

[rodw]

Toyota pulls a swifty with ADD
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4025&p=50275&hilit=swifty#p50275

[Batman]

Hodgo81

I'll try and answer again...

[/quote]I Understand the ADD system has more parts. I was talking about less moving parts = parts that create drivetrain resistance/load/wear. So my question is do the auto lockers still have the same amount of parts hooked up and rolling in 2wd as the standard SR? or is it a little more like an ADD system?All an air locker does is lock the spider gears within the diff it will be no different to a standard SR when it is not locked, same number of parts spinning

Or is a better example to say the ADD system like a air locker...but nowhere near as good. ie it has completly open diff on one side and then when ADD or air locker locks the hub all parts move together, albiet the locker system does a much better job.I wish I had some diagrams to show what I mean, but an ADD just disconnects one axle from the diff centre, this reduces the amount of parts moving in the ADD. When engaged it operates exactly the same as the SR Diff. A locker fitted to an ADD or an SR diff will operate exactly the same way.

The reason behind my line of questions is I'm p'ed off at Toyota for tricking me into thinking my front diff was disconnected like the suzuki system talked about earlier. and I am considering a front locker system that lets me have a genuine open diff in 2wd. Because thats how it should have been built!!!You do have an open diff, whether in 2WD or 4WD you have an open diff, fitting a locker will not change the operation of your diff in 2WD. The SR diff just has all parts spinning when in 2WD, the wheels, the two axles, diff centre and drive shaft are all moving, being driven by the wheels. An ADD is different in that in 2WD while both axles spin - driven by the wheels, one axle is not connected to the diff, therefore the axle connected to the diff just spins the spider gears and not all the diff gears and drive shaft, thereby reducing friction losses in the drivetrain.

Fitting a locker to an SR diff will not change its mode of operation in 2WD

There is nothing available in Australia (like free wheeling hubs) that will allow you to disconnect the drive from your front wheels to the diff when in 2WD [/quote]

Hope I have answered this time.

[9W6VX]

Good reply Steve aka Batman.

[Boof]

I think its also worth noting that once an auto locker was fitted to the old ADD system like my dual cab it basically did continually spin the diff centre and the drivers side axle and CVs. I never ran manual hubs with the auto locker and I had it in for years. If I was to purchase a new Lux tomorrow wether SR or SR5 the first thing I would do is fit an autolocker up front.

I personally would never run a air locker in the front of an IFS unless it was 100% necessary as in the case of a full time 4wd system. IMO they put too much pressure on the diff centre and CVs as they cannot release pressure as an auto locker can. Thats my 2c from my experience with the older IFS Lux

[pootrol]

i am totally for a front locker. but that was until i actually had to drive down a crappy track with trailer to retrieve my dirt squirter. the way the lux felt trying to get back out was exactly like ive read here ,most traction on weighted wheels ie back. if that was locked it would of been good. also the fact i read was less stress on cvs and front diff, costly to fix. speaking to an arb dude about which end he said rear. its cheaper and less hassle. also every time you hit the beach or bush the rear is always locked to drive around. ive changed my mind the rear would be the go now. i just need to decide weather the lux is good for the bush