Front v's rear locker

[Skog07]

hey all
guys with rear lockers coz ya diff is 100% open when locker is dissengauged how does it go?? eg in sand??? do ya have it locked a fair bit of the time when 4x4ing and un locking when tight turning???
also would there be more or less stress (eg wind up) on the front running both ends locked?
also how much is steering compramised in eg just rear, just front, or both??
being IFS i think it is a real improvement locking the front due to ya tyres lift a fair bit of the time where the rear has alot more travel meaning it has more time on the ground.
im now leaning at getting just a front and getting the rear tourqued up. but then again i do a lot of articulation work so a combination might be better.
im getting a better deal getting both done at the same time so i want to get it right first time. i know its ultimatly up 2 the individual and there needs, but it would be good to look in to in greater depth.
Cheers Troy

Gday Troy.
Ive only got the rear locker.
Yes it is 100% open all the time, driving locked in sand doesnt benefit you at all and actually makes the car want to bog down and dig in especially around corners. Ive mucked around with it on sand but it doent really give any benefit at all.
When Im out 4wding I tend to flick it on early (if I dont forget..lol) and leave it on.. Until the obstacle is completed then turn it off if I remember.. You can have the rear locked on a hard surface as I have had to do 90 degree turns in pretty rocky conditions without any problems as all. Engaging them and disengaging them in the heat of the moment with wind up can cause problems. The rear is strong enough to cope with this.
With regard to lifting a wheel up front and the touch down breakages of CVs if you have good 100% traction ( locked) on the rear the one front one up in the air is still spinning at the same as rate as the rear anyway. Yep the front end is completely useless in this situation as it does not have any drive at all but the rear pushes it up the obstacle. The gentle approach comes into the equation all the time. If you want to smash and bash the hilux you will pay the penalty either way.

With regard to road performance. Same as McSumway.
Learning to redrive it off road. Same as McSumway.

Comparing Nissan theory to Hilux experience........ Priceless....
You can come up with a pretty good allrounder with locking the rear and having change from not locking the front to spend on a second second set of bloody good muddies that you can bolt on when you want to use the locker.
Wish you well on your build mate, would be good to get some other members insight into this thread.
Cheers
Mark

[jiggins]

McSumWay

If you need a LSD I could be willing to come for a drive to aid in your study and hill climb.

cheers

Jiggins

[wat700]

Warren - my LSD is available too if you need it!

I've been toying with the idea of an auto locker rear (to try compensate for the loss of the LSD) and a manually engaged front locker.

Any thoughts on this combination?

Cheers,

Watto

[KTM525EXC]

hey watto
i did give that set up a thought but am worried about the characteristics of the handleing on road with an auto locker they look the goods on paper but in practice is a different story. thats why i was keen on getting the diff shimed and tourqued up and keeping the LSD.

i have spoken to a few pplz now bout auto lockers and some swear by them thinking that there the best thing since sliced bread. others arnt as good

i think it all depends on what ya intend on using ya rig 4. there is always a compramise that ya will have to live with, with any modification.

im all ears though, on all your thoughs and suggestions.
so keep them coming

Cheers Troy

[premier]

I've got both front &rear ARB lockers and couldn't be happier......mates that come away with us have to go fairly hard at some of the rough tracks we do risking damage to their rigs, where as with mine we can just crawl through letting the lockers & tyres do the work for us.

[McSumWay]

James that would be great. Will just need to get similar tyres on to make the test more balanced. Should get mark to come and bring his MTZ's as they are the same size and use the same rims as mine.

Premier - I know the feeling. The only thing I have noticed is that I am now a bit lazy when it comes to choosing the right line. The lockers just make most lines drivable - dangerous vehicle angles excluded.

[Skog07]

When and where do you plan on doing this run Warren? Keep me in the loop.
Jiggins if you want to give the MTZ a run on the factory LSD which will keep the test pretty fair.
As all the vehicles will be fairly similar, same weight, accessories fitted canopies, lift manual, etc. etc. making the axle weight similar at each end.
I Will bring the gear up for the change overs, MTZ's BBQ and put on a sausage sizzle. My vehicle can be excluded for the test as Warren you can replicate the characteristics of mine by not turning on your front locker.
If anyone has the combo of front locker and factory LSD and in Sydney and wants to participate in this test and has similar options to the vehicles above we can arrange a date possibly a MWS or a Saturday/ Sunday run.
Would be good to get a model specific comparitive test not a competiton...
To much red cordial tonight.....
Cheers
Skog

[Hilux Max]

Ill be keeping a keen eye on this test.....will make for a great video

[jackolux]

G'Day Guys

I haven't read all this thread , just thought I would add my 2 cents worth

I had a 2.8 D Lux with a lock-rite in the front and compared to a mates similar Lux with std diffs

it was like to completely different trucks mine just shat all over his when the going got tough

My D4D has 2x Air Lockers ( ARB ) and combined with the auto trans its fantastic

If I was only going to have one locker , because my Lux is the SR and everything spins up front even when in 2wd , that rules out a Auto Locker in the front

When I had my lockers fitted there was nothing else available only ARB

I would now look at Detroit for the rear and Air for the front ARB / TJM , dunno

I have had a fair few problems with my ARB lockers pissing oil and not working , they have been out 3 times

Seem ok now , still piss oil

Shyte any of that dribble make sense

[Hilux Max]

Do you get transmission windup when using both lockers at once?

is there chance of damage using both at once on say a very rocky track where you have the potential to get heaps of traction at times over very uneven surfaces?

[McSumWay]

Mark and James - We need to use the same driver as well to cover skill differences and ensure that the same line is driven. Not to mention control the speed etc to try and get an equivilent test.

Was thinking of an area that a MWS would be best for. Some good testing climbs about an hour north. Not able to do this until later this month though. Will talk.

Warren

[Alby]

Keep me in the loop Warren, reckon I am up for a MWS. As my Lux is not suitable for any of the comparisons I could attend as an expert witness??

Alby

[Macca]

We were talking about this over the weekend at Rover Park.

When I lose traction it is uaually opposite wheels in ruts or whatever making the ute "see saw" so the wheels essentially spin in fresh air.

Having a lock in one end or the other effectively turns the car into a 1 wheel drive, as it has most of the wieght from that end of the ute on it, it has great traction and drives the ute untill the other wheels gain traction.

All the torque of the engine that is amplified through the reduction of the gear boxes is directed to that 1 wheel.

Wouldn't it be better to place that load on a rear axel than a front axel with the CV joints on it?

I am leaning towards a rear locker as the risk of blowing a front shaft seems higher to me.

Macca

[HiruxHijinx]

I have a rear locker, and would definitely recommend rear over front.
Although I engage the locker when going downhill to assist with grip and effective braking (stopping individual wheels locking on their own), I find the most useful time for the locker is when CLIMBING difficult obstacles / hills / tracks. It is also at this time that most of the vehicles weight is centred to the back (climbing a hill). I also like the idea of having a little bit of give in the front end (no locker) for steering, turning etc. However, I would definitely like the option of a front locker also, but have to draw the cash line somewhere!!
I don't credit the rear LSD with any respect at all. In my opinion it is as good as an open diff. It offers no assistance at all, Toyota have never really sorted that!
Just my two cents.

Sam.

[Macca]

Hey Sam

It was your 2 cents worth that got me thinking differently about this subject.

You made up my mind for me, over the fire. Bloody good place for a technical conversation

Macca

[KTM525EXC]

hey guys

i just thought id post a bit more info i have found out.

yesterday when i was getting my new sliders dry fitted before they go off to powder coating i asked the business owner what he would recommend with lockers, as he has 2 comp trucks, a gq and a gu and many trophies.

he reckons the best combo is to lock the front and keep the lsd. he recommended a auto locker for the front and he swears by them, as he has had them 4 ten years of racing and has only broken 2 cv's while using auto lockers, when he was using the air lockers he had he broke more cv's than he could count on 2 hands he reckons.

i also asked him bout the nissan lsd's being better than toyotas, so he said the same as i read in a mag to get it shimmed and torqued up.

he said lock the front because imagine the rear does all the pushing action where the front lifts and pulls, eg if the front has fallen in a hole the front tyres climb out the hole as well as drive forward where the rear will just push if you get what i mean. i said what about the weight transfer he said all the weight is over your front axel thats where the front locker comes into affect.
he said air lockers are 100% locked while there engaged, so steering is compromised and you have to be the judge when they are needed. while an auto locker engaging and dissengaging when it needs he said ya cant even feel it working its that smooth.
coz mine is sr5 with add it wont interfere with 2wd driving.
not sure how it would affect the sr's when in 2wd more research needed lol

hope this has shed some light
Cheers Troy

[Marshwa]

hey guys just reading trough your post and i hate to drag off topic but its been bugging me for ages. What is ADD? i was doing a service on my lux a while back and realised a hose from a box with add had a hole in it, so yeh fixed all that up then read through the manual and net and ask a few of my mechanic mates trying to find out what the hell it was with no luck. All i could find is that lux's with add use "this oil...". Any insight would be great. sorry again about slipping off topic.

Cheers, Max

[Quinny34]

Interesting points KTM... I'd agree with most of it but Im booked in already for the front locker... ARB air locker... Will let you know how I find it...

But with regard to the rest... the old timers that do alot of hard core 4x4 (read, climb trees) have also mentioned the front for similar reasons... I also completly agree with teh weight, On some really steep ascents its nearly always the front with more grip IMHO. But each to there own... for those with more cash... go dual..

[rodw]

hey guys just reading trough your post and i hate to drag off topic but its been bugging me for ages. What is ADD? i was doing a service on my lux a while back and realised a hose from a box with add had a hole in it, so yeh fixed all that up then read through the manual and net and ask a few of my mechanic mates trying to find out what the hell it was with no luck. All i could find is that lux's with add use "this oil...". Any insight would be great. sorry again about slipping off topic.

Cheers, Max

Marshwa, ADD is a very well kept secret that does not appear on Toyota's spec sheets. ADD = Auto Diff Dsconnect and is only fitted to the SR5 and no ton the SR. There is a electro-pneumatic disconnect of the diff from the front axles when 2WD is selected. Do not confuse this with freewheeling hubs. The front axles still turn with ADD, but the diff does not.

[shane308]

when i had my rear ARB locker put in i had ideas of eventually getting a front one as well but the difference just having the rear has made is awsome, so much so that i really couldn't justify the cost of doing the front. But maybe those that have fitted the front first may be thinking the same thing, the reson i did go the rear was because i didn't want to put any extra stress on the cv's since the lift and tyres would have been giving them a hard time allready.