Injector / Seals / Smoke / Blocked Oil Pickup

[grogfrog]

Oh, yeh Alby
it's an Early 2007 SR5 with the dead engine from blocked oil pickup screen, seen expamples of other blocked screens also, in 2006 models all due to Injector seal leak. You probably know the copper seals were plated from 2008 up. They even changed the part number, school is out on wether the plating actually helps, so as I said, NZ dealers swap 'em out anyway each 45,000K inteval

GFrog

[Alby]

How many k's had you done? I have not heard anyone else here have that problem.
I actually asked the Diesel specialist I went to this week about the injector and washer issue and he had not seen any problems like that in a Toyota, he did have a German diesel there that had suffered a similar fate.
He gave me the impression that the D4D was not experiencing any more issues than the other makes.

[srextra]

grogfrog, cheers mate will look into it asap, not all that keen on blown engines!

[WinM70]

As a precausionary measureI had my ute checked at an independent Diesel injector/motor specialist on Tuesday

Where abouts was this if you don't mind me asking? I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

[Alby]

As a precausionary measureI had my ute checked at an independent Diesel injector/motor specialist on Tuesday

Where abouts was this if you don't mind me asking? I've been thinking of doing the same thing.

I went and saw these guys at Carlton Sydney. http://www.geminidiesel.com.au/
Last week on a few cold mornings I got an ugly knock and puff of smoke on initial startup but only on a stone cold motor so wanted to check it out, I found if I gave it extended glow on the plugs it did not happen.
The diagnosis was that I am getting a bit of blowby with a bit of oil sitting in the inlet manifold that with the colder weather the glow plugs don't burn it off so easily, I might look to fit a catch can if it becomes an issue but of cause it has not done it since.

[grogfrog]

Hi Alby,

Mate, if you google a combination of: Hilux, engine, D4D, blown failed, siezed. blocked pickup, injector leak, injector problem, death rattle, etc etc you are going to find like a lot of unhappy people, in Australia, U.K, S.Africa, South America, Spain, etc etc like 100's...and these are only the ones online. This is not a random issue.

My best guess is that it takes approx 50,000KLM from leak start to build up enough carbon gravel to kill your engine. but this is a conservative guess and is based on only one injector leak. 2 x leaks maybe 25,000klm? Their could be symptoms of a leak, but in many cases not always, this is because of the way the buildup reseals the combustion chamber to a degree. So you may never know your injector problem is slowly going terminal.

I have only seen this on 100,000KLM plus engines, but light duty, regularly serviced engines like these should not fail at 150,000 klm, or even 180,000 klm. or 200,000klm but they will if they have no oil flow any engine will fail.

Most second hand Hilux D4d trucks I see on lots presently are easily in this mileage range. So look out on these.

Its definately a major issue, why else would Toyota run a major customer contact campaign now OS, up to August 2014, on vehicles they sold over 4 years ago? This is an issue that presently us poor bunnies in OZ are having to wear. This can be big bucks and it just ain't fair on a vehicle costing us this much.

I hope my efforts might just save somebody $15,000 plus on an new donk & turbo.

G frog

[Skog07]

Hey Grogfrog.
Weve had a few ghosts come on here and claim that there are some class actions happening in the Europe and NZ and Toyota honouring warranty claims. I am certainly not discrediting these posts
On this site..We have seen photos of fuel tanks full of diesel algae, Carbon choked EGR valves, heard horror stories of water in the diesel fuel that will kill a common rail diesel.
Is there a photo on the web available of the gravel sized carbon deposits in the sump that clog the filter.
Ive never ever seen a photo on this site of the sump pulled out of one of these engines to show the build up..
Please educate me....

[Alby]

Grog frog as Skog07 has said, this forum is a pretty good gauge of any issues with these vehicles. There is a wide variety of vehicles in age and usage including a number of members who are involved in the mines ,Toyota employees and service agents so I believe most positives and negatives are brought to light here.
I am not saying you don't have a problem by any means but it does not seem to be a major issue that others here are experiencing or are reporting as going on anywhere.

Hope you get yours sorted out.

[grogfrog]

Hi Alby, here is a couple from a quick search:

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=oil+s ... 2,s:0,i:74

http://www.tlocuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopi ... 8e53ea7a83

http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/vi ... 12&t=10505

Check these threads.

[grogfrog]

Hi Alby, here is a couple from a quick search:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=oil+strainer+landcruiser+crispin&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=619&tbm=isch&tbnid=7ZfAddTf8VAJbM:&imgrefurl=http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D12%26t%3D10505&docid=4C1G6UsIttFaHM&imgurl=http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab109/10FishyFingers/Toyota%2525203ltr%252520D4D/D4DEng002.jpg&w=1024&h=768&ei=eFawT5elMM6ViAeJ-7HNAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=461&vpy=144&dur=6193&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=124&ty=84&sig=118049757166644623922&page=1&tbnh=128&tbnw=162&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:74">http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=oil+s ... 2,s:0,i:74</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tlocuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11437&sid=1e7e2242c7b233f3f2b6048e53ea7a83">http://www.tlocuk.co.uk/forums/viewtopi ... 8e53ea7a83</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10505">http://www.landcruiserclub.net/forum/vi ... 12&t=10505</a><!-- m -->

Check these threads.

Hi Skog07,

Re Injector seal leaks, leading to Oil Strainer clogging, leading to dead Engine on a regularly Toyota serviced D4D engine...

Love to get some pics to you..

Not sure how to upload pics for you yet,

But I have put some in grogfrogs "Myshed" for you to look at.

Please feel free to visit my shed, although its a bit messy in there presently!

G Frog

[Hilux Max]

G'day Alby,

Injectors were actually working OK, In fact engine was running well with no signs at all of problems, no "death rattle" no smoke, etc, etc, regualrly serviced with regualr oil changes at a well known dealer.

Injector seal (washer) leaks, only discovered after failed engine teardown, when we actually pulled the injectors out, and found the packed in carbon between the injector and the injector port.

This carbon from combustion leak can pack in so tight it re-seals the combustion chamber to a point, thus further masking the problem, but because of the pressure it still slowly migrates out of the port into the oil galleries and down into the sump, slowly collection until the final Oil pick up screen blockage and oil starvation kills the engine.

As I mentioned, I can see now that no matter how many oil changes you do, you will not get rid of this stuff unless you drop the sump and do a major clean out. So you can't blame dealer, they need to know what to look out for via a Toyota TSB or something similar, like in Europe.

Its not really an injector problem, it is an injector seal problem, and if, like in NZ, they change 'em out every 45,00O KLM, it will never get enough buildup to kill you engine.

Looks like the Kiwi Techs at Toyota NZ are one step ahead of our blokes in helping keep customers cars properly maintained.

GFrog

Thats nasty looking.

Couple questions.....

1) Is this your personal vehicle?
2) Trying to understand how a leaky injector seal can produce carbon that packs the leak - is this due to escaping heat fromt the combustion chamber cooking the carbon in the leaky fuel?
3) Is this confirmed that this is duel to fuel leakage from the seal or is this just a coincidental find at the same time as engine strip down?
4) What sort of oil has been used in the engine during its service history? How often was it changed?
5) What sort of work does the vehicle do?
6) Does the owner cool the engine down before switching off as you should on a turbocharged vehicle?

Just trying to understand a little more behind it all.

The way I see it it could be one of two things.....the injector seal as you've already mentioned thou Id like to know more how that relates to the carbon buildup? How can carbon granules that big get past the piston rings and into the sump? Im having difficulty understanding the way the following could happen -

This carbon from combustion leak can pack in so tight it re-seals the combustion chamber to a point, thus further masking the problem, but because of the pressure it still slowly migrates out of the port into the oil galleries and down into the sump, slowly collection until the final Oil pick up screen blockage and oil starvation kills the engine.

The combustion chamber is a seal section of the engine, sealed only by the intake/exhaust valves and injector on top and postions rings on the bottom. What oil galleries are in the combustion chamber for the carbon off the injectors to fall into?

I think this may be caused by not changing oil/oil filter regularly (I know you said the vehjicle is regularly serviced), allowing the engine to get too hot then switching off without a cool down period thus causing heat soak into the engine which would further degrade/cook the oil causing carbon contamination of which you speak of inside the sump.

Im happy to be schooled on this but theres a high chance that -
a) oil wasnt changed regularly and/or oil filter
b) vehicle wasnt sallowed to regularly cool down before switching off
c) poor grade of oil being used.....I'd reccomend synthetic for its cleaning properties to rid the engine of any carbon.


sorry for the long response.

[grogfrog]

G'day Alby,

Injectors were actually working OK, In fact engine was running well with no signs at all of problems, no "death rattle" no smoke, etc, etc, regualrly serviced with regualr oil changes at a well known dealer.

Injector seal (washer) leaks, only discovered after failed engine teardown, when we actually pulled the injectors out, and found the packed in carbon between the injector and the injector port.

This carbon from combustion leak can pack in so tight it re-seals the combustion chamber to a point, thus further masking the problem, but because of the pressure it still slowly migrates out of the port into the oil galleries and down into the sump, slowly collection until the final Oil pick up screen blockage and oil starvation kills the engine.

As I mentioned, I can see now that no matter how many oil changes you do, you will not get rid of this stuff unless you drop the sump and do a major clean out. So you can't blame dealer, they need to know what to look out for via a Toyota TSB or something similar, like in Europe.

Its not really an injector problem, it is an injector seal problem, and if, like in NZ, they change 'em out every 45,00O KLM, it will never get enough buildup to kill you engine.

Looks like the Kiwi Techs at Toyota NZ are one step ahead of our blokes in helping keep customers cars properly maintained.

GFrog

Thats nasty looking.

Couple questions.....

1) Is this your personal vehicle?
2) Trying to understand how a leaky injector seal can produce carbon that packs the leak - is this due to escaping heat fromt the combustion chamber cooking the carbon in the leaky fuel?
3) Is this confirmed that this is duel to fuel leakage from the seal or is this just a coincidental find at the same time as engine strip down?
4) What sort of oil has been used in the engine during its service history? How often was it changed?
5) What sort of work does the vehicle do?
6) Does the owner cool the engine down before switching off as you should on a turbocharged vehicle?

Just trying to understand a little more behind it all.

The way I see it it could be one of two things.....the injector seal as you've already mentioned thou Id like to know more how that relates to the carbon buildup? How can carbon granules that big get past the piston rings and into the sump? Im having difficulty understanding the way the following could happen -

This carbon from combustion leak can pack in so tight it re-seals the combustion chamber to a point, thus further masking the problem, but because of the pressure it still slowly migrates out of the port into the oil galleries and down into the sump, slowly collection until the final Oil pick up screen blockage and oil starvation kills the engine.

The combustion chamber is a seal section of the engine, sealed only by the intake/exhaust valves and injector on top and postions rings on the bottom. What oil galleries are in the combustion chamber for the carbon off the injectors to fall into?

I think this may be caused by not changing oil/oil filter regularly (I know you said the vehjicle is regularly serviced), allowing the engine to get too hot then switching off without a cool down period thus causing heat soak into the engine which would further degrade/cook the oil causing carbon contamination of which you speak of inside the sump.

Im happy to be schooled on this but theres a high chance that -
a) oil wasnt changed regularly and/or oil filter
b) vehicle wasnt sallowed to regularly cool down before switching off
c) poor grade of oil being used.....I'd reccomend synthetic for its cleaning properties to rid the engine of any carbon.


sorry for the long response.

Hi Max,

A1. This is not my personal vehicle,
A2. The injector is installed under the rocker cover, which as you know encloses the lubrication system,
When it leaks, combustion gas & hight temp pressure invaded the lubrication system, cokking the oil and becomming a carbon gravel making machine.
A3.Its not fuel leakage, Its primarily hot combustion gases escaping, and also cooking all in its path, under the rocker cover.
A4. What ever Oil An "big" Authorised Toyota service agent would use, changed at regualrly specified intervals.
A5.Light Urban & highway duties.
A6.Shut down per handbook.
A7. The carbon are created under the rocker cover by the escaping combustion gas via the injector seal leak, not via the piston blowby, granules escape via the rocker cover section of the lube system and flow down due to gravity into the sump, where they collect and suck up onto your pickup screen, ultimately starving the engine of oil.

Re maintannce shedule, believe it or not this is a regualrly maintained vehicle, the Service techs were more horrified than I when they finaly had a look in the sump!

Hope this helps your understanding Max, a few people who think they are looking after their D4D's sadly are going to get the same terrible & expensive surprise.

GFrog

[scott07lux]

It annoys me when non hilux owners have the guts to bag the shit out of their reliability, toughness etc. Of course there are problems as there are with any vehicle but when its the most popular ute in aus of course you going to see more at mechanics or with problems, but as a percentage based assessment the hilux is way better off!

[Hilux Max]

Thanks for that mate, appreciated. So the escaping combustion gas should then also show up in a compression test on each cylinder would it not?

If the injector seal is leaking then that cylinder would be loosing compression.

[scott07lux]

okay sorry what i said doesnt really apply to this forum. This is scary! Deffinitly looking into this

[grogfrog]

Yo Max,

Because this carbon cake is so radially compressed between the Injector and the injector port, It virtually Is resealing and masking the problem in many instances, So the cylinder is probalby making satisfactory compression in some cases, however because of the pressure & temp, it is slowly being continually extruded out into the lubrication system. It is like a very slow Carbon sausage making machine, a radial sausage of compressed carbon that is continually feeding into the engine, lets say as a estimate, from leak start to terminal condition in engine, it will take 50,000KLM, but if you have two injectors doing it then maybe you could halve this mileage and time.

This is why the problem is not readily being picked up at service time.

GFrog

P.S. Thanks for uploading the pic. Max

Hi Scott07lux, for most of us the bank is the real owner!

[Hilux Max]

Im assuming these seals are replaced with the upgraded ones at time of Injector warranty replacement to DLC injectors?

[grogfrog]

Im assuming these seals are replaced with the upgraded ones at time of Injector warranty replacement to DLC injectors?

Hi Max,

Maybe not at the very start of the DLC rollout, some could be standard copper.
Later on they would all get plated seals.

The DLC "Diamond Like Coating" (I have to ask who named it that?!!) & Reflash did help earlier cold start fueling issues,

But the injector seal leak problem is kind of like a separate issue, and potentially more diabolical for the D4D.

GFrog

[grogfrog]

Well as this previously known problem has actually appeared in the media I decided to contact Toyota directly for their response, and if they were going to follow suit with Toyota UK

I was told that Toyota Australia actually had no idea about this problem until the Sun Herald brought it to their attention and that they do not believe it to be a major problem.

Either way Toyota Australia is now considering its position regarding this issue and I'm supposed to hear back from them on Monday when they have determined the course of action, if any, that they will be taking.

It may not result in a recall but instead a "customer service exercise", which means they would replace it for a particular year/model range if the customer expresses a concern about it. It also makes it easier for them to keep the issue under wraps and limit media exposure - after all the Hilux has often been touted as unbreakable and that point is one of the few things that helps it stay amongst the top in sales. It's not an image they want to lose.

Gday SteveS,

Heard any word back from Toyota yet? I"m really hoping you have some luck with them with some position on the issue and how it is different from the D4D's in Europe. From my pics that Max put up you would agree it kinda looks like the same issue. It would be wonderful if they could help this old Frog with some unbreakable customer service, that way I'll gladly crawl back under my mushroom and stick to my Grog!

I am waiting for some feedback myself, but I am probably talking to the wrong blokes at Big T?

I'll probably stay around in this pond though for a little while longer though because there are lots of other really interesting things going on that I would like to contribute too as well! Some will like it, some will love it, some might definately hate it. Can't please em all I guess. Thanks for some of the positive feedback though.

P.S. I do have a soft spot for Toyota 4WD vehicles

GFrog

[Skog07]

Thanks GF for the pics...
I do have to ask the question. Does this problem occur in the 2nd hand market. ie Vehicles purchased from govt ex council, mining auctions that may or may not have been idled, unloaded for extended periods of time.. Running aircons and heaters on site in lunch breaks. Or does it come from sloppy injector replacement, kind of like reusing a Nylock nut again for the second time. Ive read time and time before that the the injector seal need replacing which also includes the common rail pipework itself.. All the pipework from the rail to the injector,as it doesnt seal properly on the refit.. Most people do the quick dodgy and just replace the injectors..
The only reason I do ask is... I have a 130000ks vehicle, the Common rail is common rail.. ie never ever touched by Toyota at all or anyone including speciallists, never been chipped or even opened up for an inspection for EGR. Oil changed roughly between 5000 to 7000ks after the warranty ended along with filters. Gets clean air, clean oil and clean fuel..Dragging off the sump this early in the engines life just doesnt seem right. I know the service history as I have owned it since new..
Cheers
Mark