Front v's rear locker

[KTM525EXC]

is it possible to get after market cv's that are bigger and stronger if so then that will be a real improvement.
Troy

[Skog07]

Troy.
This is the thread where Doug busted his CV. He gives a pretty good write up on how to fix it and also there is a mention of using longer Prado Cv joint to prevent the tripod from pulling out.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1731&hilit=Third+gear+Cv+gone+in+one+day&start=60
Its a good read through.
Cheers
Skog

[Hilux Max]

Cheers Skog,

I knew I read that somewhere before about Prado CV's being used in hilux's but for the life of me couldnt remember where.

Will have a dig through that link again.

Edit: Skog, just found the mention of the Prado diff and not good mate...heres what Doug quoted -

Spoke to Ken from Ultimate and said the 120 series have different splines, I did buy some 95 series and found the inner joint that he said to use was different as well so I don't know. I found today the Hardy spicer supplied cv are 5mm shorter than OME and the new cv is binding up when the wheel is in the air so I sending to Toyota tomorrow to have them fix the gearbox, hopfully all goes well then I'll look into the cv problem again.

So no good there.

I have heard similar things by the Yanks that have fitted cheaper replacement driveshafts instead of using toyota ones and they have experienced same issues with the CV's binding alot sooner than the factory ones.....just something to consider and take into account if and when anybody has to replace a driveshaft.

[Skog07]

Yeah Max.
Well pointed out. Read through the whole article and Doug came across spline differences between the Hilux and 120 Series Prado CV.
Looks as though a contributing factor in the front end failure is the diff itself flexing on the mounting points particulary that drivers side tripod. I noted a while ago the Curians Cv broke in exactly the way the Dougs did on that same side.
It would be difficult to analyse to what made the Cv break, whether or not the extreme torque made the diff flex to the point of making the bracket deform which made the tripod pull out of its housing. I have alway wondered why Toyota never ran this bracket all the way back to the cross member behind it. This would strengthen the front end up considerably. Hes a pic of Dougs bent one. It also shows how it is only mounted on one end to the body. It is a forged part but relys upon 1 mounting point.

Max you'd be able to find out the differences betwwen the 120 SeriesPrado and the Hilux Cvs wouldnt you? And what nessicary parts would be needed to make them fit into the Toyota front end.
If not it looks like lowering the diff may be the only option. Or using one of those Calimani kits that boxes the diff in securely on a frame and lowers into a better position for the CV's
Ive drifted way off topic now.
Cheers
Skog

[Hilux Max]

please explain this Calimini Kit mate?

[rodw]

Max,

http://www.calmini.com/

Snake was bringing them in for a while for the Hilux and will sell them to you for the Suzi Vitara. Calmini was big in the Suzuki Vitara comunity in the US, but in reality it was a pretty shoddy kit although it was very comprehensive in what they set out to do with diff drops, rear diff a frame spacers, rear trailing arms etc. Problem was being US, they used a 1/2" drill for some of the holes. That works out at 12.4 mm instead of 12.0mm and the 0.4 mm was enough to let things wiggle and break CV's guys left the springs in and took out the diff drops, left the long coils and stopped breaking CV's.

They also have a reputation for poor performance and a brutal spare parts policy. If you did not buy a full kit, you could not buy spare parts.

So finally Graham from Suzi Sports at Springwood up here told me that he tried to fit a couple and always an into dramas becasue the parts never fitted perfectly and holes needed redrilling. You know what it's like mate time is money.

So anyway, with all of that feel free to have a chat to the calmini Australian distributor Snake Racing. You may well find the Snake Kit is a rebadged Calmini. But I tell ya mate, nobody on this forum really needs to select this stuff and pay the premium given the history I have just outlined...

[KTM525EXC]

skog good read thanks 4 that

[cr1pp5]

i reckon a hilux needs a rear airlocker before a front, the reason for this is simple. Toyota have weak LSD's. Nissan on the other hand I would go front, as the LSD's are so bloody tight.

But at the end of the day, it is a never ending debate. It all comes down to personal opinion and what thee driver feels comfortable with.

Cheers
John

[Twisty]

One thing I've notice with my 40 and specially my 4runner, which had a lot more travel in the rear then the front, is if only the rear is locked and your climing a rutted steep hill, the truck will tend to lift front wheels a a lot more then there is a front one as well.

I agree with John above but, and due to toyota crapp lsd's, I'd probably fit one to the rear first on the lux.

[pjg]

Gday,

Been reading this as I plan to get a dual cab ute sometime next year, and the Hilux is at the top of the list. Until about 2 years ago I've always owned 4wd's and I'm missing it! I've had an assortment of different 4wd's, last few being a GU 4.2TD and before that a V6 Rodeo Space Cab with an air locker in the rear and 2" lift. The GU was stock apart from muddies and it was more capable than the Rodeo offroad with the air locker (and same muddies). Air locker in the rear worked really well on the Rodeo though, it had a canopy and some home made drawers in the back, LPG tank, rear bar with spare wheel carrier, so a bit of extra weight over the rear all the time. It had ADD so I'm well acquainted with that.

Slightly off topic but relevant to choice of locker should I get a Hilux - I'm a little confused about the SR - if it doesn't have ADD or free wheeling hubs (unless I've misunderstood what's been written here), but is not full time 4WD, how is 4WD engaged? Is drive to the front diff disconnected between it and the transfer case? I was thinking I'd prefer an SR because I though it would have free wheeling hubs since it doesn't have ADD.

Anyway with regards to lockers, I'd have to agree about a rear locker being preferred if you carry enough weight over the rear all the time, though dual lockers would be my preference If it's an air locker, you won't feel it (ie. 100% open diff) on road during normal driving unless you drive like a twat, or sometimes in the wet (eg. tight up hill turn where the inside wheel will spin - I used to just lock it in these situations as there was enough slip in the wet not to worry about wind up). Rear lockers are also awesome for doing doughnuts in 2wd! (not in places that would upset the greenies though ).

[Twisty]

Rear lockers are also awesome for doing doughnuts in 2wd! (not in places that would upset the greenies though ).

Hehe, gotta agree with that. The first test of the rear airlocker I fitted to the 4runner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nMGfRFDt7M

[rodw]

Twisty, I reckon you should apply for a job to ferry backpackers around on Fraser Island. they'd be bouncing aorund in the back of the troopy if you were driving mate.

Actually amazed where this thread I started has got to since posting up some info about front v's rear to all sorts of stuff about lockers. I sat dormant for a while and then got a life of its own.

I'm a little confused about the SR - if it doesn't have ADD or free wheeling hubs (unless I've misunderstood what's been written here), but is not full time 4WD, how is 4WD engaged? Is drive to the front diff disconnected between it and the transfer case? I was thinking I'd prefer an SR because I though it would have free wheeling hubs since it doesn't have ADD.

pjg, Sorry to dissapoint mate. Did you ever drive a Series 1 Landrover which predated freewheeling hubs? You had a transfer case with high and low ratio and 2wd/4wd. Back in those days, the freewheeling hub was not around so in 2WD the front axle rotated all the time even in 2wd.

Then some bright spark called Warn or something invented the freewheeling hub because he reckoned if he stopped tha axle turning, it would save a lot of wear on the front end as he could disconnect the front wheel hubs from the whole of hte drive chain.

Well anyway, Toyota in their quest for more profits decided to throw away the free wheeling hubs we had become accustomed to and reverted to the 1950's technology of the Landrover Series 1. But they saw an opportunity to couge their customers to increase profits by releasing the SR5 and slipped in the ADD which disconnected the wheels from the drive chain at the diff end of the front axle.

Interesting though that not one brochure released by Toyota refers to the difference between the SR and SR5 in relation to ADD.

Silly me, when I bought my SR, I saw there were no manual freewheeling hubs poking out, noted there was nothing in the brochures and just assumed that Toyota had followed the lead of Suzuki who in 1992 was fitting automatic freewhweeling front hubs to Vitaras like my last 4WD. It was not until I joined this forum after I bought my rig that I realised that I had a constant drive front hubs.

So in summary :
SR = 1950's Landrover Series 1 technology with constant drive, diff turns, disconnected at the transfer case
SR5 = Bastardised Auto Diff Disconnect, axle turns but diff does not
Toyota = sneaky bastards for not telling us the difference in features accross the model range

[pjg]

So in summary :
SR = 1950's Landrover Series 1 technology with constant drive, diff turns, disconnected at the transfer case
SR5 = Bastardised Auto Diff Disconnect, axle turns but diff does not
Toyota = sneaky bastards for not telling us the difference in features accross the model range

Thanks for answering that. Probably makes an air locker the best choice for a front locker I guess. At least your mates can't switch your hubs to freewheel while you're not looking, then laugh at you when you get stuck I did like that on the Rodeo and the GU (GU was auto disconnecting hubs, you could only force them to be locked not unlocked).

[Twisty]

Twisty, I reckon you should apply for a job to ferry backpackers around on Fraser Island. they'd be bouncing aorund in the back of the troopy if you were driving mate.

SR = 1950's Landrover Series 1 technology with constant drive, diff turns, disconnected at the transfer case

Sh!t, I didn't know that about the hubs, figured it had ADD. Is it possible to fit hubs from previous models?

As for the job at fraser, driving tojo's all day at one of the coolest spots in Oz, with hot sweedish backpackers.....i think I can handle that....when do I start

[rodw]

SR = 1950's Landrover Series 1 technology with constant drive, diff turns, disconnected at the transfer case

Sh!t, I didn't know that about the hubs, figured it had ADD. Is it possible to fit hubs from previous models?
quote]

Mate not so sure, I looked at the kit posted earlier Downey was it? Anyway, Max might know if there is one for our truck. The constant drive is one of the problems with CV's wearing out if you lift too high.

[Skog07]

Rod you have started up a great thread here.
I guess to balance this article up of the SR not having ADD, whilst it would be nice to have the option of having a 2wd low range for reversing, particulary with a trailer in a manual it is one less thing to seize up and stuff up out in the scrub.. If that little electric motor vacuum actuator stuffs up you are at best a 2wd without an airlocker in the front. It is also another point of weakness in the driveline to the right axle.
Somebody on here and I cant remember either to refer the post to had an ADD actuator seize up effectively turning the vehicle into a 2wd. Water ingress caused the problem hence the SR5 has an ADD breather.
With regard to the freewheeling hub design to the front end adding the extra weight of all the componentry of the freewheeling hub itself would detract from the vehicles on road performace due to the unsprung weight on each side of the axle. Everything is a compromise I guess.
Cheers
Skog

[pjg]

Rear lockers are also awesome for doing doughnuts in 2wd! (not in places that would upset the greenies though ).

Hehe, gotta agree with that. The first test of the rear airlocker I fitted to the 4runner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nMGfRFDt7M

I found my video of the Rodeo doing donuts - http://peka.smugmug.com/gallery/8023508 ... smhkg-A-LB

[wat700]

G'day All,

Just got my latest issue of 4wd Custom Action in the mail today.

There's an article in there regarding Front vs Rear lockers.

One of their test vehicles was an 05+ Hilux.

Won't spoil the results for those who haven't read it yet but it is very interesting reading.

Cheers,

Watto

[shad]

theres nothing like both front and rear lockers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXc8EE06 ... re=related


shad

[Hilux Max]

Shad,

thats an awesome vid...great to see some real offroading like that.....wouldnt have gotten far without dual lockers.