Front v's rear locker

[SerbLux]

Hi Guys just a quick question as i am not familiar with what you mean by getting the diff shimed and tourqued up and keeping the LSD. What is involved? Who does it? Rough costs? Your help would be greatly appreciated. How good would it work once it done compared to say a Nissan diff?

[Hilux Max]

If you get the rear lsd shimmed up, it means you fitting a solid spacer instead of a wave type spacer in the lsd, and getting it torqued up means tightening it up so the rear lsd doesnt slip as much.

correct me if Im wrong but thats the best explanation that I can come up with.

cost, well its basically mostly labour, unless you can pull the axles out and diff centre and drop off at a diff workshop to get the work done.

I reckon IMO, it would be worth tightening the rear lsd if you have a front locker fitted and the rear lsd has had its day.

[premier]

Well I love my diff locks.....but after using them alot over easter the rear has developed a oil leak, its bypassing one of the O rings in the diff itself. All has to be pulled apart to fix it, but I cant fault the guys at ARB.....No questions asked lets get it fixed was there reponse.

[Hilux Max]

under warranty?

[Alby]

I am booked in for new ARB bar in a fortnight and am getting a locker fitted at the same time.

ARB St Peters are saying definately go the rear locker because rear end is much stronger and the standard LSD 's are of no value anyway so you are not giving up anything. With the prices for front or rear being very similar I have no reason to think they are trying to recommend the dearer product??
Going on the comments to date on this thread being 50/50 for front or rear it is confusing but the upside is whichever one you choose half the people here will think you made the right decision

Just on the auto lockers being better, is that comment coming from the point of view of a dedicated offroad vehicle (comp truck) ?? As others have said before on this forum that they would not put one in a daily driver??

Alby

[Quinny34]

Just FYI.... when I got mine they had over 2000 rear lockers in stock as they also fit many other toyo 4x4's... the fronts are harder to get and not in stock generally. Mine took 2 weeks to come in...

They are also harder to fit and they cost a tad more for fitting. The guys generally hate doing them as they have less room to work with.

[SerbLux]

Thanks for the reply Mmaaxx. I will have to look into it some more. Has any member here had their diff shimed and tourqued up??? Sorry to be a little off the topic I to am trying to decide which locker to go for.

[KTM525EXC]

Just on the auto lockers being better, is that comment coming from the point of view of a dedicated offroad vehicle (comp truck) ?? As others have said before on this forum that they would not put one in a daily driver??
Alby

he has 2 comp trucks gu and gq and 1 daily driver gu which has still 5 inch lift and 37''s lol yeah and that to has an auto lokka as well.
Troy

[premier]

under warranty?

yes mate....only 8 months old

[KTM525EXC]

Hey guys been doing alot of research of the lokka and other auto lockers.
after reading another forum i found some info that concerned me, the actual lokka dosent fully dissengauge even with add here is the email i sent:

I am buying lockers for my hilux in the near future and I was after a
bit more info on your lokka, firstly because my hilux has ADD (automatic disconnecting
differential) will the locker interfere at all when in 2wd? The reason I ask is I read that the wheels wont disconnect fully being its not a proper free wheeling hub, it that correct. Also in a scenario where you are climbing a slippery muddy hill where there isnt much friction will the lokka still disengage when trying to turn or stay locked until firmer ground has been reached enough to unlock the lokka?
thanks Troy

Hi Troy,
what you read was correct. the RHS wheel rotates the planetary gears all the
time. The LHS wheel rotates half the LHS axle all the time.
The LHS axle is 2 piece, that is where the A.D.D. (auto disconnect
differential) connects and disconnects.

The Lokka is always locked - unless one wheel wants to roll faster than
the diff is trying to drive it. This only happens when you are turning
(so outside wheel travels further) and there must be traction -
otherwise there is nothing speed up the wheel, so it does not unlock.
On a slippery muddie slope I imagine there is no traction, so it will
not unlock (diff is driving both wheels) and nor would you want it too.
When you are loosing traction there is no 'outside' force to make the
wheel go faster than the diff speed. There would be no restriction to
steering as there is no traction - so no load up.

so in conclusion for you SR guys you will always feel it is there because no free wheeling hubs (and some say no affect) but us guys with SR5's we will still have 1 wheel locking so i guess we will be in the same boat but with 1 wheel
is tht what You guys think?
also if it dosent dissengauge when traveling up a muddy (slippery) hill when turning its the same as a air locker but meaning we have the control wether its on or off
so im now leaning on going down the same path as Quinny and Max with a front air locker and rear lsd.

Cheers Troy

[Hilux Max]

so im now leaning on going down the same path as Quinny and Max with a front air locker and rear lsd.

Another recruit to our club

yeah, the auto locker ADD non ADD thingy still confuses me somewhat...even after looking into it. I think that it may be not a bad option for the rear, but not for the front.

[Quinny34]

Another recruit to our club

yeah, the auto locker ADD non ADD thingy still confuses me somewhat...even after looking into it. I think that it may be not a bad option for the rear, but not for the front.

I'd agree... depending on the cost of getting the LSD tightend up I may just grab an auto locker for the rear instead of forkingout for another ARB or TJM rear... the auto lockers are just so cheap in compairson for the same affect.

I would however like to be able to switch it of as sometimes your not in it to get to the top.... your in it for the MUD!

[SerbLux]

Guys I went for a drive to 4WD systems today that sell the locker to have a chat to them about it and how it works. Well to start with the lockers are not available for our hilux as yet ( front or rear). The guy said that they are currently releasing 4 lockers a month...all different models of cars. They have just finished a locker for the front and rear of a current model Narvara N22.The next one they are working on is a locker for the 200 series and current model hilux which they expect to have the rear lockers ready for sale by mid June and fronts by August. I asked him how the lockers handle on the road and if they would spin your diff up. He said that provided you drive it normally and don't go driving like a race car driver on bitumen there will be no problems with the diff or wearing your tyres out quicker then normal. He said they sell a lots of lockers for those Falcons & Commodores and have not had any issues as yet. He said the front is taking more time for the R&D department as the Cv's are just not strong enough. They are confident that they can over come this issues but would not say how. Current listed price is $699 for the front or rear....if you place your order this month and pay for it full they will knock off $100 for each locker. He said fitting then is pretty straight forward and takes about 3 or so hours. If you want them to install the locker they will charge $250 to install.

He said they are selling lockers for the front of Nissan's like hot cakes that's how popular they are. I know a GQ patrol owner who has a auto locker in the front of his car and said he cannot really notice the difference in every day driving but feels that his rear LSD has to work half as much as the front when 4WD as it makes that much difference. His mate has a auto locker in the front and rear of GQ and he loves it and says money well spent when compared to air locker prices.

I am swinging towards a auto locker in the rear and then see how I go and decide if i need a locker the front.

[Hilux Max]

2 points,

1st, Im gonna keep a keen eye on the auto locker in the rear, so keep us all well informed.

secondly, I find it very interesting that they are saying the front CV's are not strong enough in the hilux....

from all the Yank forums Im a member of, all the new tacoma's have the same front ends as the hilux's.....these blokes are running 35's with twin locked and lefty geared transfer cases, increasing the torque multiplication to the front cv's alot...and they are not busting them.....

Seriously, I think the auto locker design just isnt compatible with the way the front diffs on the hilux's work. The fact that they arent free wheeling hubs anymore tends to suggest to me that they are incompatible with auto lockers.

anybody else feel the same way?

of course the rear is a different story.

[Skog07]

Mmaaxx.
I reckon the front isnt up to Auto locking due to the design of the front axle and the absence of free wheeling hubs.
Would like to submit some old and very credible evidence to this debate of front vs rear locker.
Assuming that most of you blokes that are fitting front lockers drive around without any weight in the tub when you go 4wding, camp in the one spot and go 4wd from there. Utilising the front axle weight to give traction due to lack of rear weight.
For us blokes with canopys carry a fair bit of weight and use our truck for tourers check this out.
This is a very credible vid of a full loaded hilux doing some moguls. This is Tomuch's vehicle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulMlf-xK60
Im trying to push the view of tourer that is reliable and can stand up to being driven as a 1 wheel drive without busting anything whilst fully loaded in the middle of nowhere.
Pulling/ Pushing a fully loaded vehicle on a locker creates huge stresses on the drivetrain components I would trust the rear axle over the front Cv setup for sure.
All in healthy debate.
Cheers
Skog

[Hilux Max]

Yeah Skog, over those moguls is pretty impressive.

Now he has a lokka fitted right? In the rear yes?

I agree with your sentiments that for a tourer with alot of rear weight, a rear locker if having to choose one would benefit you more.

If just offroading, the weight over the front axle with a front air locker would benefit in that respect.

Horses for courses at the end of the day....this debate is very informative...great to see it still goin on.

[Alby]

Mmaaxx and Skog you have both raised a very good point with this and numerous other discussions which often gets overlooked when taking someones advice on items like lockers , Tyres, suspension etc

Forum members here all have different agendas with what they do with their Lux

And that is:
1.Do you intend on using your vehicle in the same manner as they are are using theirs?
2.What weight you are carrying
3. Percentage of offroad v highway v city driving
4. Is your vehicle a family daily driver/shopping trolley/kids bus/ weekend recreational vehicle as opposed to hard core 4by work and pig shooting
5.Are your expectations out of a product the same as they have?

I know it all sounds like in your face common sense but it is easy to get caught up in the hype on an issue without fully appreciating the point of view where the advice is coming from.

I for one are not so hands on with tinkering with vehicles so am always keen to recieve advice from those that know better than me so I tend to heed advice a bit more from those that have a similar use pattern to me.

Tell me if I am reading too much into the last couple of posts but my summary of the discussion to date is:

If you are a fully loaded up touring set up a rear locker is the go whereas if you are doing your 4by work unladen the front is better suited???

As to the type of locker well that is another debate again

Alby

[Quinny34]

100% spot the F### on! Alby....

[rodw]

Skog, Alby

Yes, I watched the vid and echo Max's sentiments, the weight over the rear discussion probably adds another dimension to the argument. Alby, your checklist is good value, but the end of the day it is your decision. Long and the short of it, you'll never know if you were right or wrong, either axle will make such an enormous difference.

I still think the weak front end has not been proven, and you should refer back to an earlier post in this thread where ARB redesigned the front locker to provide 300% more strength. I don't know of one report on this forum of busting a Hilux CV.

From what I can gather, most IFS carnage comes from large tyres applying excessive torque and compounded if on or near full lock. Coming up from the Vitara IFS front end, the weakness was the diff housing and only ever in reverse where the torque twisted the housing the wrong way for the mount which snapped the housing. I carried a CV but never used it. I know a friend who snapped a ring and pinion in a Navara while on a training course in easy stuff after he put some air under the front end. I have never head of someone doing that to a Hilux front diff on this forum.

However, I am cautious of the front end and the massive torque these diesels put out, and always come off the throttle if I think a front wheel will go up in the air and accelarate away after touch down. Matter of fact, I think that is what I was taught to do back in the 80's.

[Skog07]

Rod.
I agree the front diff is stronger with the ARB centre. Its the weaker link in the chain that torque and shock loads will cause failure.
A few members that I recall breaking CVs on a locked front axle are.
Doug67, Jackolux and HarrisBM ( he didnt muck around though and went for a live axle front end..lol)
and a few members that have broken CV unlocked are.
Curian and Dave from memory there maybe more.
I would recommend my combination of rear locked as a "tourer" now as it has been in for nearly 18 months now and has given me no problems at all and actually the locker itself seem to be able to drive the vehicle beyond its clearance capabiltities to the point of destruction.
Locking either end will improve performace without a doubt.
I may explore fitting a front locker at a later date if and when I decide to do a ratio change.
Max.
Tomuch is running an airlocker. And you also may with to know that my hilux does seem to climb a little easier reversing up obstacles with the locker engaged. Although I can only go in one direction and that is straight..lol
Cheers
Skog