The possiblity of crawler gears in our chain driven transfer

[KTM525EXC]

If this is a dumb question im sorry but whats the diff carrier
Troy

[Bull]

Sometimes called the diff centre. It's the thing that the crown wheel bolts to and the other gears sit inside of.
When you choose a full strength traction aid like the ARB Air Locker or a Detroit locker, you replace the factory carrier. If you choose the factory style plate type LSD or a "budget" auto locker you keep the factory carrier.

[Hilux Max]

Fella's,

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd continue this one here, since those interested in "crawling" or the potential of it will be interested in the following diff gear information.

I just got a response from Just Diffs in the US and they have quoted me on a set of 4.1:1 gears......

T8S-410R-OEM TOYOTA 8" REVERSE SHORT 4.10 FITS 3.10+ CARRIER{OEM} 400.00
TV6-411-PG TOY V6 4.11 R&P ALSO TACOMA&4RUNNER W/LOCKER 208.00
MK T8S-R TOY 8" REVERSE CLAMSHELL MASTER INSTALL KIT (INC
STUB AXLE SEALS) 375.00
MK TV6 V6,T4,FJ80 FRONT TOYOTA MASTER INSTALL KIT 174.99
TOY41311-71020 TOY 8" REV BARE STD CASE 3.90+ (CLAMSHELL STYLE)
1.950" DECK HEIGHT 349.99

TOTAL 1,507.98

So there you have it guys......but keep this in mind, if you are running 33" tyres and have an auto, I would recommend the 4.56:1 Thick cut gears the suit the factory 3.73:1 carrier. From memory, the gears to suit the front are $50 cheaper than the 4.1's and you save 350bux on a replacement front carrier since it fits the standard carrier.

This is also of benefit to those of us that already have a front air locker installed, as it will mean we do not have to replace the front locker for a Prado model. If you want to run a 4.1 or even a 4.88 ratio as Bull might with his 35's, then he will need to use the Prado front diff carrier and/or locker.

Hope that has helped some of you.

[rodw]

Hmm, quite an expensive exercise to get these in as you will get hit with GST plus duties as the value is over AUD $1000. I'd guess AUD $2500 plus freight.

[Quinny34]

Could you purchase them in 2 lots then???

[KTM525EXC]

max
so the manuals will still have to replace the carrier if we want to run 33's?

[rodw]

Could you purchase them in 2 lots then???

Sometimes this is cost effective but the tradeoff is two lots of freight. Customs also look out for parcels going to/from th esame address, so it would be a good idea to get one sent to a mates place otherwise you'll probably still get hit with the duties anyway.

[rodw]

Guys, I finally got my head around the gears etc I talked about on previous threads. If you have not seen it, I collated all of the drive line tech stuff here but keep it clean of posts for now.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3554
Still just clarifying some details

Anyway, back to crawlers.
There are two suppliers of Toyota Specific gear:
Marlin Crawlers http://www.marlincrawler.com/
and Inchworm Gear http://www.inchwormgear.com/store/

Of these two suppliers, Inchworm has the superior product from all reports.

The other ones of note are:
Klune http://www.klunev.com/ who make a crawl box
and Atlas which are distributed by Marks Adapters http://www.marks4wd.com/products/advanc ... r_case.htm

These two products are sometiems combined together: http://www.high-impact.net/transmission ... 0Combo.htm

But anyway, Ignore the Atlas and Klune stuff for now and lets go back to Inchworm (becasuse I read enough bad reports about Marlin not to bother with them in any way, shape or form.

Inchworm have developed the Lefty which is a conversion of the old t/case which can accept crawler gears adapted to have an output shaft location to suit our truck. It should fit without any major modification of cross members etc. See
http://www.inchwormgear.com/store/produ ... cts_id=985
They also have a set of of crawler gears fitted to the Lefty so that would change the tcase low range gearing from our stock 2.556:1 to 4.17.

So what if you don't want to go down that low? Why not? Well you might live out west where there are no mountains to rock crawl over and want a higher low gear for mud etc.

Well you can fit another crawl box to the drive line in front of your transfer case. This is essentially the gearing section of the Lefty (or the older Hilux Box) See http://www.inchwormgear.com/store/produ ... ucts_id=71
This comes with 2.28 gears as standard but can be fitted with the 4.17 crawler gears. You could put this in front of your stock transfer case but you would need drive shaft and mounting mods to make it all work.

Now this is where I got confused. At the bottom of this page is the link to the thread which I incorrectly previously referred to the shootout.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=592937
I was wrong on this. Inchworm were not bagging Marlin but simply quoting some maths and explaining why a lot of Tacomas blew output shafts when crawl boxes with lower ratios were fitted in front of the stock transfer case (which is the same as the Hilux)

Here is the diagram Jim from Inchworm put up.

Now you got to do the maths with me. Take 100 foot pounds of torque at the front, multiply it by the gear ratios and you get the numbers on the top line. What he is demonstrating is that the right place to put your crawler gears is in the transfer case itself, not in the crawl box in front of the t/case. By putting reduction gears at the front, the torque is multiplied enough to shear the output shaft of the stock Tacoma Gearbox regardless of whether you use his crawl box or the inferior Marlin one.

So the idea of putting a crawlbox like the Inchworm one or the Klune underdrive, will probably result in a busted tcase output shaft. So no, I won't be fitting a Klune in front of my stock t/case. So what are the options? You got to do the maths for your truck based on the drive line ratios I have published in the new bible thread I refer to right at the top of this looong post. Interesting with the Auto Diesel, the torque ratings are lower becasue of the different first gear ratio. I think the options become:

1. An Atlas Tcase with 3.8:1 gearing from Marks Adapters
2. An Atlas/Klune Combo
3. A Lefty with 4.7:1 crawler gears
4. A Lefty with a 2.28:1 Crawl box in front of it
5. A Crawl box with 2.28:1 gears in front of the stock Hilux T/Case
6. A Crawl Box with 4.7 Crawler gears in front of the stock T/case and run the risk of blown output shafts

Now if you have the Auto Diesel like me, you might take the risk on option 6 as I calulated the torque to be about 30% lower than the Tacoma's 1880 because of the different gearbox ratios between the Hilux and the Tacoma and go easy on the right foot under pressure.

Personally, I think a good solution would be Option 5 as you could choose to engage one set of low gears or both. Engaging both low gears gives a low-low ratio of 5.83:1.

However, an extreme soluton would have to be option 4 which would give you a choice of 1:1, 2.28:1. 4.7:1 and a low-low of 10.72:1

So anyway guys, I think if you take on board this info and the driveline stuff about diff ratios if your pockets are deep anough, you will be able to build an awesome truck, Are you listening Bull?

[Hilux Max]

Could you purchase them in 2 lots then???

max
so the manuals will still have to replace the carrier if we want to run 33's?

Quinny, I reckon the cheapest way to do this is to just buy the gear sets themselves, the crown and pinion gear and nothing else for the front and the back. Depending of course what ratio you want.

The installation kit any foruby workshop can order in locally, and you can get a new or replacement front carrier from a wreckers if you need one, depending on what gears you end up getting.

KTM, the gearbox has nothing to do with the carrier, what Rod was reffering to Ibeleive is that the manual having 5 gears has a much shorter 1st gear than the hilux so a larger gear number wouldnt be needed.

EG... 4 speed auto with 33's ideally 4.3:1 or 4.5:1 for better than stock low range

5 speed manual with 33's, even thou 4.3:1 would be ideal, you wouldnt have any problems with a 4.1:1.......

the manual in a 4.1 (33" tyres) would be similar in performance as an auto (33" tyres) and 4.3:1

personally....when Im ready for it, I'll be going the 4.5:1 thick cut gears as Im not going to change my locker just for a set of gears, and the I'll have better than stock low range 1st which will also help me when towing stuff with the auto in high range.

[Hilux Max]

So anyway guys, I think if you take on board this info and the driveline stuff about diff ratios if your pockets are deep anough, you will be able to build an awesome truck, Are you listening Bull?

So Rod, which street corner do you want to pair up together on so we can sell some of our "ass-ets", to pay for these mods? LOL

yeah, they are all awesome but the costs involved are the scary part.

I understand a crawler infront of the standard transfer would be ideal, but for ease of installation the lefty by itself has to be the go, without modding crossmembers and tailshafts......

now, you were saying.....which corner was that again?

[rodw]

So Rod, which street corner do you want to pair up together on so we can sell some of our "ass-ets", to pay for these mods? LOL

Hmm. maybe down near Skog's way to see if he'll flash some of that $6k he was talking about at us mate.

yeah, they are all awesome but the costs involved are the scary part.

I understand a crawler infront of the standard transfer would be ideal, but for ease of installation the lefty by itself has to be the go, without modding crossmembers and tailshafts......

I agree with this. It puts the reduction gears where it belongs. You can add th ecrawler box later. Not sure about what I saw on the Inchworm site but it looked like it had a twin shift option so you could have two sticks coming out a the same position.

Anyway, for those who are keen, here is a link to customs which shows examples of duties and GST calculations for goods > $1k
http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549

I think I had better content myself with the Sliders and new rubber as to do some of this stuff, I am pretty sure I'd be kicked out of home and would be on a street corner somewhere

[KTM525EXC]

max
so the manuals will still have to replace the carrier if we want to run 33's?

KTM, the gearbox has nothing to do with the carrier, what Rod was reffering to Ibeleive is that the manual having 5 gears has a much shorter 1st gear than the hilux so a larger gear number wouldnt be needed.

EG... 4 speed auto with 33's ideally 4.3:1 or 4.5:1 for better than stock low range

5 speed manual with 33's, even thou 4.3:1 would be ideal, you wouldnt have any problems with a 4.1:1.......

the manual in a 4.1 (33" tyres) would be similar in performance as an auto (33" tyres) and 4.3:1

personally....when Im ready for it, I'll be going the 4.5:1 thick cut gears as Im not going to change my locker just for a set of gears, and the I'll have better than stock low range 1st which will also help me when towing stuff with the auto in high range.

Lol sorry max i was refering to the reply you got from Just Diffs in the US i should have been a bit clearer lol my bad
so 4.1:1 will fit standard manual oem carrier? and that will be almost standard gearing like if we had our 29's on?
gee im getting confusses as i have never delved into this subject b4 lol
but im getting there hopefully lol
cheers Troy

[rodw]

Lol sorry max i was refering to the reply you got from Just Diffs in the US i should have been a bit clearer lol my bad
so 4.1:1 will fit standard manual oem carrier? and that will be almost standard gearing like if we had our 29's on?
gee im getting confusses as i have never delved into this subject b4 lol
but im getting there hopefully lol
cheers Troy

Yeh mate, Thats what my new Bible says. 4.1 diffs are near perfect for a manual with 33's on but because max and I have an Auto with a different final drive, we need a 4.3 at the same size.

If your profile is correct, and you are still running 32's, the 3.909 would also be a good match.

[Hilux Max]

KTM,

if you wanted to fit the 4.1's.....you would need the 3.9+ (prado) front diff carrier, it will not bolt onto the standard hilux (3.73 and below) carrier.

maybe search a few toyota wreckers for this, as I doubt they would be damaged and would be the cheaper alternative and they'd still be usuable.

yes, it is abit to get your head around, confuses me too sometimes and ive been trying to work out all the terms and options available for a while, so much so, Im repeating diff gear ratio's in my sleep, and the misses is writing them down next to me thinking the angels are giving us the next saturdays lotto number's....... bwahahahahahaha

[Bull]

So anyway guys, I think if you take on board this info and the driveline stuff about diff ratios if your pockets are deep anough, you will be able to build an awesome truck, Are you listening Bull?

Yeah I'm listening but all I heard was $$$...blah blah blah...$$$...blah blah blah...$$$


I'm going 4.88s and that'll do me for now.

[Hilux Max]

You make me sooooo jealous mate.......

great stuff thou.......

[tgibbo]

again this all comes round to, just buy a cruiser they have a low final drive and transfer case as standard

[Bull]

again this all comes round to, just buy a cruiser they have a low final drive and transfer case as standard

But for whatever reason their overpaid marketing department came up with, you still can't get a dual cab or an automatic.
Go figure.

[Quinny34]

Yeah I'm listening but all I heard was $$$...blah blah blah...$$$...blah blah blah...$$$
I'm going 4.88s and that'll do me for now.

LMAO.... I almost ordered the 4.3's or the closet to returning mine to stock today... but I really had to think hard about it and it came down to... I'll get the sliders, canopy and protection gear and hopefully I'll have enough left in my lease slush fund in a year or so to get them replaced (Coz we all know the factory ones will wear out within 25-50,000klms.. )

[rodw]

What agreat thread this has been. Great to see that guys like Bull have and Quinny who almost has locked in an order based on this tech info which represents the collective wisdom of forum members.

Now all we got to do is to convince one of you guys to order the Lefty