2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Scratchblades on Mon, 25 May 2015 6:10 +0000

Apparently 4 shocks in the rear plus leaves, so 2 either side of the axle

Some guy told me today, theres an actual new hilux are Tojo Artarmon on Display, not sure how accurate but ill check tomorrow.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby jcarter on Mon, 25 May 2015 7:50 +0000

Looks like just one either side, mounted opposite direction each side
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Scratchblades on Mon, 25 May 2015 9:00 +0000

Hey Jcarter, i did read it somewhere ill try and find it ........ No doubt the OZ spec will be different as usual.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Tue, 26 May 2015 5:27 +0000

Pete'90 wrote:None of the "claimed" towing capacities are actual towing capacities when the vehicles are loaded up to their maximum weight which includes 4 passengers a full tank of fuel and the rest made up in a load on the back. Also not including your accessories.
Makes you wonder how many vehicles are overloaded on trips because of false advertising. Just another thing to prove that numbers are not everything, food for thought.


Eg
Pre facelift hilux
Gcm 5030 - gvm 2780 = 2250kg actual and claimed

Current hilux
Gcm 5280 - gvm 2780 = 2500kg actual and claimed

Ford PX ranger
Gcm 6000 - gvm 3200 = 2800kg actual. 3500kg claimed

Bt50 current
Gcm 6000 - gvm 3200 = 2800kg actual. 3500kg claimed

Navara d40 st 2.5l
Gcm not given - gvm 2860 = 3000kg claimed

Dmax current
Gcm 5950 - gvm 2950 = 3000kg actual. 3500kg claimed

Rg colorado
Gcm 6000 - gvm 3100kg = 2900kg actual. 3500kg claimed

Mitsubishi triton
Gcm 5700 - gvm 2930kg = 2770 kg actual. 3000kg claimed


I have the brochure for the older Spanish D40 ST-X with 2.5L engine, which became the ST once the V6 was put into the ST-X. It says the following for the 4x4 dual cab manual:

GVW of 2805kg, carrying capacity 820kg, towing 3000kg claimed. BUT, also says with 300kg towball load carrying capacity reduces by 200kg to 620kg so the GVW must decrease also.
Not sure where the extra 100kg goes, it has to figure in the GVW and the GCM somewhere so my guess is the basic sum for GCM would look like:

GCM = 2805 + 3000 - 300 = 5505kg with actual towing capacity of 2700kg with a fully laden vehicle (820kg). However it won't be quite that simple I think as the 820kg has to be reduced by the towball weight.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Gipsy on Tue, 26 May 2015 9:41 +0000

Yes it is very complex but you need to keep ALL of the numbers under max specification and the other factor is GCM (Gross Combination Mass) which is all of the above and the extra factor of trailer weight.
I was howelled off the caravan website by all the triton/Colorado/dmax/navara/jeep owners because they all believe the manufacturer's hype on towing capacity. Beware the oncoming 100kph dual cab loaded to the hilt, towing a 3.5 tonne caravan and most likely overweight. The only true way to work these capacities out is on a weighbridge with and without the trailer loaded and then most towing folk will get a real shock when the real figures are known.
As to where the 100kg went, this is also one of the complex factors at work, since there are accessories such as load levellers and load sharing (uplift springs) etc. Ultimately, the dealer/manufacturers want to sell vehicles so they inflate the vehicle's capabilities and rely on the owners not being caught at a weighbridge overweight. 'Nuff Said :o
Cheers Gipsy :D although I'm sure somebody will challenge that :lol: even Einstein wasn't certain of his theories.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Gipsy on Tue, 26 May 2015 10:28 +0000

Just as an endnote... there are many jeep/Colorado/dmax etc owners who believe the hype about towing weight. If you examine the hype a bit more closely, the 3.5 tonne towing weight is ok so long as you don't fill your tank or take the missus along. Just picture the jeep towing a 3.5 tonne van with a boat on the roof, outboard in the boot and the wife and 3 kids in the cab... yep they are overloaded! :o
Cheers Gipsy :D although I'm sure somebody will challenge that :lol: even Einstein wasn't certain of his theories.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Tue, 26 May 2015 12:00 +0000

The reason I stated about the 100kg disappearing was the specs for the single and xtra cabs show that if you put 300kg on the towbar you reduce the load capacity by 300kg, whereas the dual cab says only 200kg.

It all gets very complicated too when you are dealing with different "rules". Example:
In NSW you are allowed to tow up to a GTM (gross trailer mass) of 750kg unbraked. This is 750kg trailer AXLE WEIGHT and doesn't include the towball weight - in most cases you'd also have 75kg on the towball of the vehicle, so the uncoupled weight of the trailer is actually 825kg. However read the vehicle owner's guides (most are the same) they say 750kg TRAILER weight or ATM (Aggregate Trailer Mass) - the uncoupled weight of the trailer. So in reality you can only legally tow 682kg unbraked as far as the vehicle manufacturer (and hence insurance) is concerned.
Same happens with the 2000kg single axle and no breakaway limit. This is GTM not ATM, so in theory you can tow a 2200kg single braked axle trailer behind a 2011 SR5 4x4 (2250kg limit) with 200kg on the towball but that is about it.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby argyle on Tue, 26 May 2015 2:16 +0000

singlespeed wrote:
argyle wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecLudteK2o

Leaf springs and drum brakes? Surely not for Australia. Can't be.

As far as I know the rules for light commercial vehicles hasn't changed. I should say loophole, not rules.

The new top-of-the-line Navara will have coils. The SR5 is a recreational vehicle and should match the Navara. 15 years into the 21st Century and they are going to serve up leaf springs and drum brakes on their flagship Hilux? They can't be that arrogant.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby gnomeo on Tue, 26 May 2015 3:10 +0000

argyle wrote: 15 years into the 21st Century and they are going to serve up leaf springs and drum brakes on their flagship Hilux? They can't be that arrogant.


Yes they can and they are. They have lived and charged off the name for so many years and are too blind to see the writing is on the wall in this market in Australia. Dont get me wrong they make good vehicles they just aren't living in the real world any more.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby hylux on Tue, 26 May 2015 3:17 +0000

Coils and independant rear - sounds good, but then I think about CV's breaking, diffs bending and all that stuff like the front end. Then you will want a lift kit - who has perfected that in the aftermarket industry ? Toyota rests its philosiphy on reliability, I think I would need to be confident that I dont get those issues so willing to wait and see what probelms the Navara comes up with first and what the suspension industry take on it wll be.
Yes it is a long time coming and should have happened years ago, but there must be a lot of design concerns for the ute market to take it in. Why didnt they do it when Landrover started it 20 years ago
I love hybrid cars - means more fuel for me
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Alby on Tue, 26 May 2015 3:30 +0000

gnomeo wrote:
argyle wrote: 15 years into the 21st Century and they are going to serve up leaf springs and drum brakes on their flagship Hilux? They can't be that arrogant.


Yes they can and they are. They have lived and charged off the name for so many years and are too blind to see the writing is on the wall in this market in Australia. Dont get me wrong they make good vehicles they just aren't living in the real world any more.


Their sales figures don't agree with you and until that changes I think they are still grinning at the boardroom table
On the internet you can be anything you want. It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid!
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Tue, 26 May 2015 4:02 +0000

If you are doing considerable towing and/or regularly carrying a load you'd want leaf springs?

Nothing wrong with rear drums for a commercial vehicle either.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby LUX666 on Tue, 26 May 2015 4:02 +0000

Whilst all above make a very valid point there is this concern that keeps coming up about "tow ball weight" in simple terms it does not apply or contribute to GCM, or effect the GVM of the vehicle.
Remember the weight of the load on the tow ball actually belongs to the trailer, so it's now not calculated as a load to the vehicle, but to it's towing weight.
The weight on your tow ball, as per RMS web site, is now calculated to tow bar manufacturers recommendation, where it use to be approx 200kg max, it's now left up the the tow bar manufacturers recommendation, although I did read somewhere that it still can't exceed XYZ, I could not find it on this new website of the RMS.
So GVM of my Xtra cab (as per rego ticket) is 2710 + 2500 towing capacity, total for both is 5210 Kg, so once the vehicle and trailer are coupled together the GVM for each becomes GCM in total.

The RMS could not have written it any more confusing if they tried, below is the extract.

Page 2 Draft Vehicle Standards Information No. 6 Rev 3
Roads and Traffic Authority
Vehicle Standards Information No. 18 Rev. 2, Oct 2003
RTA/Pub. 03.209 Cat. No. 45070598C
Further information:
www.rta.nsw.gov.au
Email: tech-enq@rta.nsw.gov.au
Tel: 1300 137 302
Fax: (02) 9843 3821
RTA Technical Enquiries
PO Box 1120 PARRAMATTA NSW 2124

Mass Limits
Combinations including a towing vehicle with a GVM up to 4.5 tonnes
The laden mass of the trailer must not exceed:
• The capacity of the towing attachment (the towbar), or
• the maximum laden mass of the trailer, or
• the maximum towing mass specified by the manufacturer of the towing vehicle.
Where the manufacturer of the towing vehicle has not specified the maximum towing mass,
the following maximum towing mass applies:
• 1 1/2 times the unladen mass of the towing vehicle, providing the trailer is fitted with brakes that
are working properly, or
• the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.
The mass of any combination must not exceed:
• The towing vehicle’s Gross Combination Mass (GCM).
" If All Else Fails !, Read The Instructions !"
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Tue, 26 May 2015 5:12 +0000

Towball weight is important as it belongs to the vehicle not the trailer in the context of the RMS's maximum figures. The 750kg max unbraked figure is actually 750kg + towball weight. The 2000kg figure for max trailer weight with brakes only on one axle is also 2000kg + towball weight.

It also affects the vehicle wrt the vehicle's max load capacity - if you have 200kg on the towball then the tow vehicle's GVW (and max load capacity) is actually 200kg less as it has 200kg on it already from the towball load.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby LUX666 on Tue, 26 May 2015 6:40 +0000

Sorry but that's not right, I spoke to the RMS about this for the 200 series Landcruiser, don't confuse load on vehicle to towing, if the trailer loaded and unhitched weighs 1500 Kg it still weighs 1500 Kg when hitched to the vehicle, you don't take 200 Kg off and put it on the vehicle.
This is why they have introduced the GCM, so the limit is GVM of the vehicle plus the GVM of the trailer, that is the new limit, tow ball weight is absorbed in that equation.
If you don't believe me ring them, he did say that they had to explain it to the police a few times, because they were booking people for overloading, when they were well within the GCM limits.
So in short, if your vehicle has a GVM of 2800Kg and by manufacturers specification can tow 3500kg, then the vehicle can be loaded to 2800 and the tow to 3500 and have a combined GCM of 6300 Kg and be legal.
The old RTA website actually had the formula on it, this latest RMS one is crap.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Tue, 26 May 2015 7:19 +0000

It is correct.

I agree with you on GCM and what it is, and the towball weight is absorbed into the total equation.

However TOWBALL WEIGHT BELONGS TO THE VEHICLE, not the trailer WRT the legal limits for braking in NSW - ie 750kg and 2000kg AND for the vehicle's carrying capacity. If a trailer weighs 1500kg unhitched (this is ATM) it weighs only (approx. assuming 10% towball weight) 1500/1.1 = 1364kg (GTM). It is this GTM figure that dictates the braking required. The towball weight is subtracted from the carrying capacity of the vehicle.

Read here:

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 0622,d.dGc
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Pete'90 on Tue, 26 May 2015 7:30 +0000

Ok fair enough, makes sense. But all the above utes I made reference cannot tow the claimed max towing capacity when loaded to its gvm as they would then be well over the total gcm. So all in all it's misleading information provided by the manufacturers.

Although I do disagree with the idea that if a vehicle is loaded to its maximum gvm, it can still have the additional weight of the draw bar and it's accessories then loaded onto the rear suspension and chassis = a overloaded and now illegal road vehicle even if it is under the total gcm.

Something I came across
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuNPuyfG ... feature=iv
Build thread:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=23139

Regards
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby LUX666 on Tue, 26 May 2015 9:14 +0000

I have read the document you point too and nowhere does it say the ball weight is added to the vehicle, at actually tells you how to work out the total weight of the trailer and load, you also need to look at this document.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... 8-rev2.pdf

This is the confusion that is going on, you need to talk to the RMS technical guys, your interpretation is not correct.
The RMS guy I spoke to was terrific, he walked me through it step by step, the ATM and the GTM in the end are exactly the same weight, just two different ways to work it out, whether hitched or unhitched.

Definitions
Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM)
The total mass of the laden trailer when carrying the maximum load recommended by the manufacturer. This will include any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane.
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM)
The mass transmitted to the ground by the axle or axles of the trailer when coupled to a drawing vehicle and carrying its maximum load approximately uniformly distributed over the load bearing area.

ATM = A + B + C GTM = A + B
ATM = A + B1 + B2 + GTM = A + B1 + B2

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... brakes.pdf


Pete,

The figures you quoted above are correct only if the vehicle is loaded to its max, in the case of the ranger, for example, the vehicle weights, depending which configuration you buy, plus two persons in it and fuel, you can get away with it weighing 2500, in which case it can tow 3500, and stay in the GCM of the manufacturer, can you do this in all models, I would highly doubt it.
Also some ads don't say towing capacity, they say pulling power, a little bit different.
A few years ago, the battle was between the Landcruiser and the Range Rover, the Landcruiser was advertised as being able to tow 5500 Kg and the Range Rover 6500 Kg, and this kept climbing every year till Australian Standards jumped in and stopped it.

Anyway I think enough said on this.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Homer_Jay on Wed, 27 May 2015 4:13 +0000

It is pretty simple to calculate-

The weight of the trailer unhitched is the total weight you are towing. This is the figure that needs to remain under the tow capacity of the car. Forget about ball weight in this equation..... If the car can tow 3500kgs, this is what the trailer maximum must be including ball weight.

The GVM of the car needs to be checked. The car GVM INCUDES the ball weight of the trailer.
The way this is measured is to weigh the car with the trailer attached but the trailer wheels off the weighbridge.

when the trailer is hooked to the car, the total GCM is then important, this is where most of these new Utes fall short.

The final check is the actual ball weight. Most towbars and cars will have a listed maximum ball weight.

Simples....
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby oggy on Wed, 27 May 2015 5:00 +0000

Apparently (in Thailand at least) there is some 220v plug thingy behind the centre console for charging shit :roll:
Occupational health and safety officers..Stop messin with Darwin's theory of natural selection... Stupid hippies.



Oggy's build viewtopic.php?f=41&t=19033
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