2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby StevenS on Wed, 27 May 2015 5:04 +0000

oggy wrote:Apparently (in Thailand at least) there is some 220v plug thingy behind the centre console for charging shit :roll:


If it's like the Prado, it'll be about 150w of charging goodness
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Wed, 27 May 2015 5:11 +0000

LUX666 wrote:I have read the document you point too and nowhere does it say the ball weight is added to the vehicle, at actually tells you how to work out the total weight of the trailer and load, you also need to look at this document.

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... 8-rev2.pdf

This is the confusion that is going on, you need to talk to the RMS technical guys, your interpretation is not correct.
The RMS guy I spoke to was terrific, he walked me through it step by step, the ATM and the GTM in the end are exactly the same weight, just two different ways to work it out, whether hitched or unhitched.

Definitions
Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM)
The total mass of the laden trailer when carrying the maximum load recommended by the manufacturer. This will include any mass imposed onto the drawing vehicle when the combination vehicle is resting on a horizontal supporting plane.
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM)
The mass transmitted to the ground by the axle or axles of the trailer when coupled to a drawing vehicle and carrying its maximum load approximately uniformly distributed over the load bearing area.

ATM = A + B + C GTM = A + B
ATM = A + B1 + B2 + GTM = A + B1 + B2

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... brakes.pdf


Pete,

The figures you quoted above are correct only if the vehicle is loaded to its max, in the case of the ranger, for example, the vehicle weights, depending which configuration you buy, plus two persons in it and fuel, you can get away with it weighing 2500, in which case it can tow 3500, and stay in the GCM of the manufacturer, can you do this in all models, I would highly doubt it.
Also some ads don't say towing capacity, they say pulling power, a little bit different.
A few years ago, the battle was between the Landcruiser and the Range Rover, the Landcruiser was advertised as being able to tow 5500 Kg and the Range Rover 6500 Kg, and this kept climbing every year till Australian Standards jumped in and stopped it.

Anyway I think enough said on this.


Spot on, that link (same as what I put up) quite clearly shows ballweight being added to the tow vehicle - that is what the diagrams and the formulae show. It is 100% correct and clear as day! RMS will only confirm what I stated. That part isn't unclear or confusing. What is confusing is some manufacturers do 3 x misleading things:

1. - claim a certain tow capacity without being clear that:
a) - the carrying capacity of the tow vehicle is severely diminished by the towball load at that towing capacity.
b) - the GCM of the tow vehicle minus the max tow capacity also means you can barely fit 4 x people inside the tow vehicle.

2. - Tell you the maximum unbraked trailer weight is 750kg, which happens to align with the 750kg stated by for example the RMS. However the RMS figure is GTM, the manufacturer of the tow vehicle's is ATM. They are not the same thing.

3. - Do not tell you if the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle is GTM or ATM. Neither do the RMS when they tell you not to exceed the maximum towing capacity of the vehicle, however one might assume they mean GTM as most other figures the RMS quote are GTM. I believe the vehicle manufacturer means ATM.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby LUX666 on Wed, 27 May 2015 8:27 +0000

Mate please read it again, ATM= A+B+C, that is the total weight of the trailer, what it's telling you is if it's hitched to the vehicle when you are weighing it you must take the ball weight (C) and add it to the total weight of the trailer, not the vehicle.
This sheet is for working out weight of trailers to see if they must have brakes of not.
Nothing to do with tow vehicle, and nowhere does it show the ball weight is added to tow vehicle.
They changed all this in 2003 and came up with GCM.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Wed, 27 May 2015 11:10 +0000

I've just been through all this with upgrading a trailer, it was all done by an RMS licenced Engineer (who happens to also be one of the authors of the National VMS). The weight capacity shown on the trailer's plate is GTM (axle load). The Engineer's report shows the GTM as 1400kg, the ATM as 1540kg and the trailer's plate shows 1400kg as do the rego papers. The RMS are only concerned with GTM, it is up to the person towing to make sure adequate load is placed onto the vehicle's towball. When I put this trailer fully loaded behind my Hilux it removes 140kg of the Hilux's carrying capacity.

I understand what GCM means - The Hilux GCM is 5030kg. GVM is 2780kg. So all you have to do is weight the car and trailer connected and be less than the GCM. All good? No it isn't.
This does not help you with trailer loading, or vehicle loading and that is when you need to be aware of towball load. An example being if I had my Hilux loaded to the hilt at say 2750kg (30kg to spare) and decided to hitch up my 1400kg trailer to it - if the trailer is fully loaded and loaded properly I should then have 1400kg on the wheels and 140kg on the towbar. My GCM is 2750 + 1540 = 4290kg. You beaut, less than 5030kg! But all is not well as the Hilux is carrying 2750 + 140kg = 2890kg - hence it is overloaded.

It is imperative that anyone who tows understands these things implicitly, personally i'd like to see a towing licence be separate like a bike licence. Where you are made to sit down and do calculations on GCM, GVM, GTM, ATM and towball load and pass theory tests. The whole c#%kshow going on between manufacturers about who can tow the most only inflames the situation. Anyone towing big vans or boats with these normal road vehicles really should have a set of towball weight scales as well as be made to drive into the roadside weighbridges to weight both the car's wheels and the trailer's wheels and either be fined for not driving through them and/or fined for overloading.

Note you are correct that link is about the lines in the sand where braking requirements change. What it shows clearly though is the RMS use GTM for the boundaries not ATM (although I think the 2500kg limit for 2 x chains is ATM), whereas the vehicle manufacturer's use ATM for both the unbraked limit (750kg) and the maximum towing capacity. The point is the confusion around what the kg limits mean.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Gipsy on Wed, 27 May 2015 11:50 +0000

Yep! Clear as mud... but as I said earlier... make sure that you do not exceed ANY or ALL of the weight limits (GVM, GCM and towball weight) and all should be ok... There is not one figure, it is a combination of ALL the figures.
And my argument stands about troglodites towing a 3.5 tonne van with the vehicle loaded to the max. I bet the 3.5 tonne van weighs more than 4 tonne when filled with all the goodies you need whilst travelling.... Yep OVERWEIGHT! Beware the grey nomad (and I am one!)
Cheers Gipsy :D although I'm sure somebody will challenge that :lol: even Einstein wasn't certain of his theories.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Homer72 on Wed, 27 May 2015 12:15 +0000

How about you guys start another thread on that topic. Cause seriously I have never read so much boring crap in my life about nothing really to do with the Hilux.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby argyle on Wed, 27 May 2015 1:11 +0000

hylux wrote:Coils and independant rear - sounds good, but then I think about CV's breaking, diffs bending and all that stuff like the front end. Then you will want a lift kit - who has perfected that in the aftermarket industry ? Toyota rests its philosiphy on reliability, I think I would need to be confident that I dont get those issues so willing to wait and see what probelms the Navara comes up with first and what the suspension industry take on it wll be.
Yes it is a long time coming and should have happened years ago, but there must be a lot of design concerns for the ute market to take it in. Why didnt they do it when Landrover started it 20 years ago

Mate this is not groundbreaking stuff. Land Rover Defenders have had coil springs and disc brakes for years. The Prado as far as I know is a reliable vehicle and is also COMFORTABLE. No ned to wait and see how the Navara goes... the technology is firmy in place.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby argyle on Wed, 27 May 2015 1:16 +0000

Alby wrote:
gnomeo wrote:
argyle wrote: 15 years into the 21st Century and they are going to serve up leaf springs and drum brakes on their flagship Hilux? They can't be that arrogant.


Yes they can and they are. They have lived and charged off the name for so many years and are too blind to see the writing is on the wall in this market in Australia. Dont get me wrong they make good vehicles they just aren't living in the real world any more.


Their sales figures don't agree with you and until that changes I think they are still grinning at the boardroom table

Actually their sales figures DO agree with me. Ranger is almost up with Hilux in Australia and has already overtaken Hilux in New Zealand. There have never been so many players taking this market segment so seriously. The grinning fools in the boardroom may be committing honourable hari kiri before they know it.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby jimO on Wed, 27 May 2015 1:43 +0000

argyle wrote:[ Ranger is almost up with Hilux in Australia and has already overtaken Hilux in New Zealand. There have never been so many players taking this market segment so seriously. The grinning fools in the boardroom may be committing honourable hari kiri before they know it.

i was talking to a mate who happens to sell rangers and he says the ranger is replacing the farmers falcon or commodore and they are still using other 4x4s on the farm to do the work
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Pete'90 on Wed, 27 May 2015 2:05 +0000

Im interested to know what has happend to the available in both leaf and coil applications that was meant to be for the mid to top spec hiluxes. Although i dont hear people whinging about the rangers comfort with its retained leaf sus. The biggest issue with the standard hilux suspension is that the load leaf is pretty much touching the rest of the leaf pack when empty making it jerky. When you look at its competitors they all have a minimum of 30 - 50mm separation
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby argyle on Wed, 27 May 2015 2:39 +0000

Pete'90 wrote:Im interested to know what has happend to the available in both leaf and coil applications that was meant to be for the mid to top spec hiluxes. Although i dont hear people whinging about the rangers comfort with its retained leaf sus. The biggest issue with the standard hilux suspension is that the load leaf is pretty much touching the rest of the leaf pack when empty making it jerky. When you look at its competitors they all have a minimum of 30 - 50mm separation

I agree it is also disappointing that the Ranger does not have a coil option. If Nissan has a smart ad campaign, the Navara will fly out of showrooms.
Last edited by argyle on Wed, 27 May 2015 2:43 +0000, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby argyle on Wed, 27 May 2015 2:40 +0000

jimO wrote:
argyle wrote:[ Ranger is almost up with Hilux in Australia and has already overtaken Hilux in New Zealand. There have never been so many players taking this market segment so seriously. The grinning fools in the boardroom may be committing honourable hari kiri before they know it.

i was talking to a mate who happens to sell rangers and he says the ranger is replacing the farmers falcon or commodore and they are still using other 4x4s on the farm to do the work

Yep the Ranger is taking over from Hilux on farms and also on minesites. There seems to be a hell of a lot of Amoroks in Darwin too these days. Is it so hard for Toyota to make a dual cab ute with Prado mechanicals? And I am just talking about the top spec SR5 model here which is increasingly being bought for recreational use by families. The bottom end hacks can still use horse and cart springs for all I care.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby HK1837 on Wed, 27 May 2015 2:55 +0000

Homer72 wrote:How about you guys start another thread on that topic. Cause seriously I have never read so much boring crap in my life about nothing really to do with the Hilux.


Fair enough!
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Pete'90 on Wed, 27 May 2015 3:09 +0000

HK1837 wrote:
Homer72 wrote:How about you guys start another thread on that topic. Cause seriously I have never read so much boring crap in my life about nothing really to do with the Hilux.


Fair enough!

It is relevant, although we could go around and around in regards to what really means what. So let's all just make our own assumptions as the manufacturers have always expected us to.

Who knows, the aus spec hilux may be kitted out different to the rest of the world, as all it's features and most specs have being kept under wraps. I have to admit I am definitely liking the new shape and look. Really hoping for the leather to be available here.

Has anyone seen the photos on the n70 Facebook page showing the next gen hilux 8th with a lift and big tires yet. Thailand of course.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby singlespeed on Thu, 28 May 2015 3:35 +0000

argyle wrote:
jimO wrote:
argyle wrote:[ Ranger is almost up with Hilux in Australia and has already overtaken Hilux in New Zealand. There have never been so many players taking this market segment so seriously. The grinning fools in the boardroom may be committing honourable hari kiri before they know it.

i was talking to a mate who happens to sell rangers and he says the ranger is replacing the farmers falcon or commodore and they are still using other 4x4s on the farm to do the work

Yep the Ranger is taking over from Hilux on farms and also on minesites. There seems to be a hell of a lot of Amoroks in Darwin too these days. Is it so hard for Toyota to make a dual cab ute with Prado mechanicals? And I am just talking about the top spec SR5 model here which is increasingly being bought for recreational use by families. The bottom end hacks can still use horse and cart springs for all I care.


The Fortuner is closer to the Hilux and it's got coils and rear disc brakes. Unfortunately the light commercial thing ruins it, they should be sold as a commercial vehicle, at least the top models which are being sold as family cars.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Homer72 on Thu, 28 May 2015 9:24 +0000

argyle wrote:
jimO wrote:
argyle wrote:[ Ranger is almost up with Hilux in Australia and has already overtaken Hilux in New Zealand. There have never been so many players taking this market segment so seriously. The grinning fools in the boardroom may be committing honourable hari kiri before they know it.

i was talking to a mate who happens to sell rangers and he says the ranger is replacing the farmers falcon or commodore and they are still using other 4x4s on the farm to do the work

Yep the Ranger is taking over from Hilux on farms and also on minesites. There seems to be a hell of a lot of Amoroks in Darwin too these days. Is it so hard for Toyota to make a dual cab ute with Prado mechanicals? And I am just talking about the top spec SR5 model here which is increasingly being bought for recreational use by families. The bottom end hacks can still use horse and cart springs for all I care.

Rio Tinto made the big mistake of putting the Rangers onto a lot of WA sites and are now having to replace them with dual cab Cruisers. I'm looking out my office window at around 30 dual cab Hilux's parked at the Goline and know they are the only vehicle in that category to last the extreme conditions up here in PNG.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Alby on Thu, 28 May 2015 9:38 +0000

Homer72 wrote:Rio Tinto made the big mistake of putting the Rangers onto a lot of WA sites and are now having to replace them with dual cab Cruisers. I'm looking out my office window at around 30 dual cab Hilux's parked at the Goline and know they are the only vehicle in that category to last the extreme conditions up here in PNG.


I was waiting to hear some feedback as to how these other brands were going on minesites and whether they handle it as well as the Toyotas or not
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Homer72 on Thu, 28 May 2015 10:13 +0000

Toyota dropped the ball when BHP and Rio went down the 5 star safety road and it cost them a lot of sales. But the replacements didn't cope well and now Toyota got there shit sorted are making a comeback. Mines are as bad as it gets for vehicle abuse from both conditions and Operators. We have Ella Motors onsite up here and they make a squillion from Ok Tedi. With around 13m of rain annually we would be better of with hovercrafts.
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Alby on Thu, 28 May 2015 11:01 +0000

I did a job in PNG highlands (Tari) years ago and the locals favoured the little Suzuki fourbies as they were light and easier to push by hand out of a bog hole
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Re: 2014 8th Gen Hilux Chat

Postby Homer72 on Thu, 28 May 2015 11:29 +0000

Just to prove Toyota make vehicles for different markets our Hilux's up here come in a variety of levels with none of them being labelled like our Australian market 1's. They are really a povo pack with 2.5l diesel and no intercooler. Yet they all come with fast glass F&R. Some have airbags and some don't. Stereos are another interesting feature ranging from crap single DIN to flash double DIN with remote. Fuel quality is terrible so it's probably just as well we don't have the latest common rail spec.
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