Starter Motor

Turbo, Manifolds, Exhaust, Intercooler, Internals etc

Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Thu, 05 Aug 2021 4:48 +0000

HiYa,
LN167R with a 5LE engine. Gotta buy a new starter motor, the old one was cooked right through. Solenoid contacts are still actually pretty good (for those who saw my other post).
Do I want a 10 tooth sprocket or an 11 tooth sprocket?
The reason for asking and NOT going by the number of teeth on the old one is that the old one is not the original and it often mis-meshed on the flywheel when trying to start. The grinding teeth sound.
I figure if I'm gonna get a new one I might as well get the right one. Anyone know for certain how many teeth I am supposed to have on my sprocket? No "Gummy" jokes please. :) :) :)
Rob_Wood
 
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby martynvella on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 6:38 +0000

Pretty sure they were interchangable. The diametric pitch of the teeth remained the same and the shaft was positioned slightly different to compensate for the drive diameter change.
Only way to be sure what yours was standard with would be to come up with the denso number of a genuine starter and do a parts break down from that, but you can bet the toyota part has superseded to the latter one.
I have personally never seen any damage done by the pinion and never needed to fit a new one, only changed the the clutch assembly and took care that the same pinion went back with the same drive end bracket.
Not overly familiar with engine types but assuming yours is a diesel fitted with the 0.7 kw denso reduction starter?
Interested to find out how your research goes.

Sorry, I do recall a badly damaged pinion but that was caused by the owner using the wrong key and it stuck in the crank position whilst being driven, wasnt only the drive gear that was damaged.
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 11:33 +0000

martynvella wrote:Pretty sure they were interchangable. The diametric pitch of the teeth remained the same and the shaft was positioned slightly different to compensate for the drive diameter change.
Only way to be sure what yours was standard with would be to come up with the denso number of a genuine starter and do a parts break down from that, but you can bet the toyota part has superseded to the latter one.
I have personally never seen any damage done by the pinion and never needed to fit a new one, only changed the the clutch assembly and took care that the same pinion went back with the same drive end bracket.
Not overly familiar with engine types but assuming yours is a diesel fitted with the 0.7 kw denso reduction starter?
Interested to find out how your research goes.

Sorry, I do recall a badly damaged pinion but that was caused by the owner using the wrong key and it stuck in the crank position whilst being driven, wasnt only the drive gear that was damaged.


Marty, you've basically confirmed what the research found. It looks like the 11 tooth is original and the 10 tooth is the later version.
Bursons are selling an 11 tooth for $273, Toyota is selling (something) for $8xx+ and ebay has a 10 tooth for $99 or an 11 tooth for $110.
The one I pulled out was 10 tooth and so I'm gonna go the 11 tooth for $110
Fingers Crossed right? :) :) :)

Footnote: Toyota Kempsey, called them at 1255. They were closing at 1300 and could not find out how many teeth on the sprocket until next week some time maybe. Really helpful of them. No wonder they have such a "Great" reputation around town.
Rob_Wood
 
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Location: NSW

Re: Starter Motor

Postby martynvella on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 12:44 +0000

Unfortunatly it is very hard to tell the difference between a cheap nasty one and a reasonable quality one from the outside. Even when I was selling new after market ones I would bed in the new contacts just to save any possibility of issues in the near future.
Another unfortunate thing about the 0.7 kw units is that the brush holder and comm isnt just under a cover on the end, so cant just pop it off and check that all the welds are good and springs are correctly positioned.

Another thing i found twice with chinese units was a 24 volt field coil fitted to a 12 volt starter, both units were owner purchased off the net and worked but very sluggish and only started by sheer luck after 2 or 3 glows.
Only way you can tell is to dismantle the unit and look at how the coils themselves are configured, otherwise look identical.
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 1:08 +0000

martynvella wrote:Unfortunatly it is very hard to tell the difference between a cheap nasty one and a reasonable quality one from the outside. Even when I was selling new after market ones I would bed in the new contacts just to save any possibility of issues in the near future.
Another unfortunate thing about the 0.7 kw units is that the brush holder and comm isnt just under a cover on the end, so cant just pop it off and check that all the welds are good and springs are correctly positioned.

Another thing i found twice with chinese units was a 24 volt field coil fitted to a 12 volt starter, both units were owner purchased off the net and worked but very sluggish and only started by sheer luck after 2 or 3 glows.
Only way you can tell is to dismantle the unit and look at how the coils themselves are configured, otherwise look identical.


Wish I'd known about the 24V field coil bit before ordering, I might have tried to do a little more research into it. All I can say now is that the one I pulled out was ALWAYS sluggish AND it looks identical to the $99 10 tooth job a passed over for the $110 11 tooth job. I guess all I can say now is something I've already said ... "Fingers Crossed". :lol: :lol: :lol:
Rob_Wood
 
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby martynvella on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 1:17 +0000

If you have your old one in bits look at the coils, if all 4 are in series then it is a 24v case, if it has 2 coils in series connected in parallel with the other 2 in series then it is a 12 volt case.
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 2:11 +0000

martynvella wrote:If you have your old one in bits look at the coils, if all 4 are in series then it is a 24v case, if it has 2 coils in series connected in parallel with the other 2 in series then it is a 12 volt case.


Good tip, I will check the old one in a while and if I can get it apart without it looking like it's been apart I'll check the new one when it arrives as well.
Quick question ... If the new one is configured for 24V (thinking about winding wire sizes), is there any issues with re-configuring it for 12V?
Rob_Wood
 
Posts: 299
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Location: NSW

Re: Starter Motor

Postby martynvella on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 2:27 +0000

Rob_Wood wrote:
martynvella wrote:If you have your old one in bits look at the coils, if all 4 are in series then it is a 24v case, if it has 2 coils in series connected in parallel with the other 2 in series then it is a 12 volt case.


Good tip, I will check the old one in a while and if I can get it apart without it looking like it's been apart I'll check the new one when it arrives as well.
Quick question ... If the new one is configured for 24V (thinking about winding wire sizes), is there any issues with re-configuring it for 12V?


Nah you wont be able to, they wound with flat bar not wire and are all spot welded and rubber dipped, even if you were totally anal about doing it i doubt there be enough room to run cables heavy enough in there. The pole shoes are rivited in now not screwed so not so easy to get apart.

Depending on the brand you get it may even have perminant magnets and not wound fields, if thats the case just holding them wrong in a vice will destroy them, but it makes them cheap to make.
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Fri, 06 Aug 2021 2:40 +0000

martynvella wrote:
Rob_Wood wrote:Nah you wont be able to, they wound with flat bar not wire and are all spot welded and rubber dipped, even if you were totally anal about doing it i doubt there be enough room to run cables heavy enough in there. The pole shoes are rivited in now not screwed so not so easy to get apart.

Depending on the brand you get it may even have perminant magnets and not wound fields, if thats the case just holding them wrong in a vice will destroy them, but it makes them cheap to make.


Yeah, I know, "flat bar" is about 4mm2 core. I was thinking of "MAYBE" snipping the cores and re-configuring by soldering the ends in the 12V format you suggested, but even thinking about it a little, with the amount of current going through, it's unlikely that soft solder would hold for long, you'd have to use silver solder and I'm not set up for doing that kinda job.
I guess if it's configured for 24V I'll just have to live with a "slow" start option.
Because I have to live with it I also figure there's no reason to even look inside the new one when it arrives?
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Re: Starter Motor

Postby Rob_Wood on Wed, 11 Aug 2021 8:12 +0000

It's in, it fits, it works. Now all I have to do is figure out what the new noise is. Sorta sounds like a cross between a loud rattle like the gizzards have fallen out of your muffler and a loud squeal, like a superheated radiator.
Finished putting tools away after dark, so I'll try to have a closer look tomorrow.
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