The cold 'rattles'

[Talktheroo]

Thanks box head
Do you need the tech stream vim attached to do the pilot learn?, I take it when you suggested revving the motor over 3000rpm and back to idle 20 times that the truck is hooked up to this tech stream?
Does it work? Have you cured the rattles?

Hmmm..... really the long term fix is to install new injectors or the Bailey exchange injectors in there.
This does depend on really, where your feedback values are.
You can check these values on Techstream as well. Engine/Data List.
The Roo.

[boxhead55]

Thanks box head
Do you need the tech stream vim attached to do the pilot learn?, I take it when you suggested revving the motor over 3000rpm and back to idle 20 times that the truck is hooked up to this tech stream?
Does it work? Have you cured the rattles?

The rev requires is a requirement when the
Pilot learn is learning.
Just revving it with out the computer in learn mode will do nothing

Since this have become available. Very little numbers of injectors have been replaced. And yes it does stop the rattles.

The ute can do it by its self as well but a heap of parameters have to be met.

After a self learn most values return to well within the permissible range.

This is because the computer is learning the worn or blocked injectors fuel output and adding a final fuel trim to the compensated fuel trim ( that your compensation code)

But as too said. If you do this and it don't work. And your values are still way out you will have a destroyed injector.

But the cases of this happening have been rare.

You can only try you can hurt nothing and have nothing to loose.

[V11NEJ]

Thanks to you both Bh and Roo. I took your advise Bh and asked to speak to the senior tech guy at my Toyota dealership, and I am meeting him to go over the problem next week.
Roo, my truck has only done 2500 miles or so, its only two months on the road, is it likely do you think that it has busted injectors at this age? But stranger things have happened!
Was its first fuel not so good, or has the car stood around a lot in certain conditions before its debut into working life? How did it get out of the factory sounding like this?
It was warmer today, about 10-12c in East Scotland, and it was rattling like a bitch on small throttle openings in traffic. The colder it is, the quieter it is, I can make this noise happen with just the handbrake on and slipping the clutch against it to create the correct amount of load needed to make it clatter like hell, should be easy enough to show the tech guy what I'm going on about. Provided its a warmer day!
I've built cars for years as a hobby, but am currently doing my own pilot learn on common rail diesel technology
So far I've enjoyed learning at the hands of my brand new (got a problem) lease truck
I wish I had the cracked tech stream and Vim I'd have a go myself! How do I get my hands on that?
Thanks again
V11

[Talktheroo]

The Techstream software is definitely worth having if you have a notebook with a 32 bit operating system installed in it.
As some members have now experienced through the diagnostic tools that I own, you can keep an eye out on those injector feedback values and check out the DLC for fault codes. You can do much more with this software, too.
There have been a number of members that have had a sigh of relief when all has been good, in the last couple of days.
Imagine if you could just check everything whenever you wanted.
I am sure either me or BH will help you understand everything that is on Data List and the Active Test sections.
The DLC part of it, is pretty easy.
The Roo.

[boxhead55]

You said it in one Roo. Information is one thing.
How to use it and understand it is a compleat other story.

[Talktheroo]

You said it in one Roo. Information is one thing.
How to use it and understand it is a compleat other story.

What am I leading us into, LOL.
Oh well, it will be fun, anyway, BH.
The Roo.

[Timbo1980]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the forum, picked up my 2013 SR5 a couple of weeks ago (700kms currently on the clock!)

I've been reading through this thread with interest, because my truck is rattling a bit too. But I'm not sure if what I have is the same thing as what others here are describing.

Mine seems absolutely fine other than one very specific thing. If I am in 3rd or 4th and accelerating under load, at almost exactly the 1900rpm mark a clatter-type rattle comes on. Stays till 2000-2100rpm and then is gone again. I just assumed it was a vibration caused by a particular resonance at that rpm but this is quite weird because when the rattle comes on it is literally like somebody is flicking a switch. There's 'zero' and then its 'on'. Doesn't build up at all, it is just 'on'. Weird, never witnessed anything like that in other diesels.

Is this the same thing that most people here are describing?

So I guess my question is... should I be concerned by this at the end of the day. Seems like a pretty common problem judging by the length of this thread! Is this just something these engines do? It doesn't 'annoy' me, so if its not dangerous to my engine, I'm happy to plough on as is. But if it is not a 'normal' feature of these engines I obviously want to get it sorted...

Thanks fellas.

[Wazza80]

Just on an update about my noise. The second tank in and the BP fuel has seem to work a treat and the engine seems to be happy. Thank for the info once again

[dervdave]

Hi all,

This is my first post on the forum, picked up my 2013 SR5 a couple of weeks ago (700kms currently on the clock!)

I've been reading through this thread with interest, because my truck is rattling a bit too. But I'm not sure if what I have is the same thing as what others here are describing.

Mine seems absolutely fine other than one very specific thing. If I am in 3rd or 4th and accelerating under load, at almost exactly the 1900rpm mark a clatter-type rattle comes on. Stays till 2000-2100rpm and then is gone again. I just assumed it was a vibration caused by a particular resonance at that rpm but this is quite weird because when the rattle comes on it is literally like somebody is flicking a switch. There's 'zero' and then its 'on'. Doesn't build up at all, it is just 'on'. Weird, never witnessed anything like that in other diesels.

Is this the same thing that most people here are describing?

Is this just something these engines do? It doesn't 'annoy' me, so if its not dangerous to my engine, I'm happy to plough on as is. But if it is not a 'normal' feature of these engines I obviously want to get it sorted...

The noise your describing is the normal `under load` rattle (sounds a bit like `pinking`)

[Talktheroo]

These are the high wear components of the 23670-39316 Denso injectors



The spindle.



The nozzle and the needle. With the nozzle, it's mainly carbon that blocks the outlets.



Also, cetane, or the lack of it, these engines are designed around the European standard of 50+, lower cetane in the fuel can cause the rattle or the pinging sound.
The photos as above, may give you some idea at where the problems occur when the feedback values are found to be out of range.
This injector by design, is pretty complexed, compared to the Robert Bosch brand.
While some things can be done through software, it's actually mechanical wear, most of the time.
The Roo.

[boxhead55]

And this is what happens if you let problems go for too long or run a chip

[Talktheroo]

Yep, BH, seen heaps of this, and the dreaded hole.
I would like to post some images of what blow by does, but it might freak a lot of members out.
The thing is, what BH and myself are saying, prevention is better than the cure, by a long shot.
Yes, there are still some dealerships that deny this stuff happens to the 1KD-FTVs, but they are wrong, and it will possibly lead to an expensive repair bill if you stick your head in the sand.
It actually amazes me, that some people still blame this stuff on bad fuel, but it's actually component or injector failure.
If you don't have your injector feedback values checked, at least every 10,000 kms after 60,000 kms, then I reckon you are just playing around with luck.
If your luck runs out, you are looking at least, a $15,000.00 repair bill.
These sorts of repairs are becoming quite common, too.
I have a 2009 KDJ120 Prado that, well let me say this, is pretty well seized from the blow by condition, and a Hilux with a hole in number 3 piston from an injector failure. That's, at the moment.
Be careful who you listen to on these issues, as some armchair expert told the Prado owner he could drive his vehicle, when he shouldn't have.
The Roo.

[Talktheroo]

I also agree with you a 100% on the performance module or chip situation, BH.
I totally disagree with the fitting of most chips, as this vehicle is running at around the 90% mark from factory.
The Roo.

[boxhead55]

A nice clean oil pick up screen



And a nasty little hole.




Thoughts

[Talktheroo]

This is usually caused by the fuel pooling on the top of the piston. The cause is by the needle and the nozzle being warn and the fuel just leaks in there over night or when the vehicle is turned off for a period.
The other problem is when the nozzle outlets get carboned up and the spray pattern becomes concentrated into one spot on top of the piston. This condition usually causes the piston hole situation.
This looks like the pooling problem, as it's been one huge explosion. The solenoid probably failed and held up the needle. It's been a lot of excess fuel to do that sort of damage, a major explosion, my mate.
The other problem, blow by, looks like this.


http://postimage.org/

http://postimage.org/app.php

http://postimage.org/

http://postimage.org/

The Roo.

[Talktheroo]

As you can see, 80% to 90% blocked screen.
The blow by condition has nothing to do with the death rattle. It's the seats or sheets that fail letting the exhaust gases mix with the engine oil, a chemical reaction that causes the engine oil to go hard.
This in turn blocks the screen. The photos above are a result of having no or little lubrication because of the blocked sump screen.
This has been a common problem in a number of other CRD engines, but we are talking about the Toyota brand here, that pretty well, have always got their engineering right in the past.
I have plenty of other horror photos, but I usually keep them to myself.
This is just to show BH what the condition, blow by does, when the screens are left unchecked.
The Roo.

[Big dawg]

I've got a brand new SR and it rattles for a bit at start up, and I live in Darwin, where it's constantly hot as sh!t

[Talktheroo]

Without hearing it, it's hard to know, but the age of the vehicle, new, would indicate that the rattle that you are talking about is normal. You do get a bit of a rattle, and just let it warm up for a bit before giving it any stick.
The rattle we are talking about here is like somebody tipped a whole lot of marbles down the oil fill outlet.
If your worried about it, get your local service guys to do a feedback value and total volume check.
Note, this service will probably cost you extra.
The Roo.

[Cooksey]

mine also rattles for about a minute but then is fine but i did notice the other day some white smoke on start up but nothing since any one have any ideas about this?

[RyanShero]

hey fellahs im new to this, my engine knock is heaps bad! getting progressively worse aswell, it started of with a tiny knock and has grown bigger and louder. its only bad at the 2,000rpm range. 103,500kms on the clock. I got my injectors checked 3 months ago, and they where fine?!...
so overall decision, do youse think I should replace all injectors or just get a re-flash.?