Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

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Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Mon, 08 May 2017 1:32 +0000

Hi all -

I've been having some smoke issues as of late. Not on vehicle start, but under acceleration (high in the rev range, accelerating from low revs, and around when the turbo kicks in). Fuel Economy is down too - my last semi-accurate reading was 580km out of a tank whereas I formerly could push 640km without a warning light.

I've tried all the usual maintenance items, including:

  • MAP Clean
  • MAF Clean
  • Catch Can Empty & Clean
  • Oil, Fuel *2, and Air Filters (2,000km before the issue started)
  • Injectors, Fuel Lines, SCV (24,000km before the issue started)
  • EGR and Intake Cleaned (24,000km before the issue started)
  • ECU Reset
  • Check of all clamps, hoses, etc.

Ran a diagnostic last night which I think has given me a lead. My process is that I save all my diagnostics and also record drives on my diagnostic day so I can graph the vehicle through real-life driving.

When comparing 2016 to 2017, I see that in 2016, my Target EGR Position and EGR Lift Sensor Volt % are much tighter including when the Target is above 50%. My 2017 diagnostic recordings (from last night tonight) show that the values are much further apart, and my EGR Lift Sensor Volt % never gets over 45%. In fact, I think it caps at around 44.1%.

As such, I'm guessing that my smoke issues are related to the EGR - either it's clogged or something to do with the sensor - and that's despite having it and the intake cleaned 24,000km ago (just a tad under a year ago). Otherwise, it's related to work done by a mechanic when they replaced my rocker cover (which was cracked). We only noticed the issue after the mechanic did the work (though this could've been by chance).

Can anyone confirm that my next steps would be to clean the EGR and/or replace the EGR Valve Position Sensor (89455-35020)?

Screenshots:

2016:
Image

2017:
Image

Diagnostics:
Image

Thanks for any advice!
Last edited by apSlain on Sat, 27 May 2017 4:09 +0000, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EGR Problem? Sensor Capped at 44%

Postby apSlain on Sat, 13 May 2017 3:59 +0000

Update: (please delete if double posts aren't allowed, mods).

Image

Had the top off this morning. Made the decision to replace the EGR Valve Position Sensor (89455-35020) with a new unit. Got excited and bewildered when I found this:

Image
Image

This is the elbow (12261-30040) that usually runs into the rocker cover but gets diverted when you've installed a catch can. About 80% ripped through. A bloke at Repco managed to find me a Gates-branded similar hose; think it was for an '89-'90 Commodore VN. It just needed a bit of shortening and it acted as a worthy replacement (also much sturdier).

Alas, fixing this elbow and replacing the position sensor has not resolved the issue. Took it for a long spin afterwards and the diagnostic read the same but the EGR Close Lrn. Status is now NG. From my observations, the range of the EGR Lift Sensor Volt % is 12.8-44.9.

Next steps: EGR clean, or replace the valves - are they valves? - on the side of the EGR. Below is my soot build up after 24,000km (note I had a catch can fitted prior to the clean).

Image
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Mon, 29 May 2017 8:31 +0000

Update: haven't had a chance to take the EGR off but did get the vehicle to a mechanic for a quick assessment and check of the injector washers. Washers were replaced and no carbonisation was found on the injector bodies. Good, I guess? They took the vehicle for a spin and noted that the smoke was not bad enough to assess the EGR.

I also did an overnight dump of the oil on the weekend and found a clear sump screen. Hooray. Ran a diagnostic the morning after the oil service and injectors were well with spec. with the best an 0.1 and the worst -1.3 (injector three, as usual).

Still smoking though...drove to the Central Coast tonight (from Sydney) and had the reverse camera going. I'm getting the smoke at take-off and roughly 2,000RPM. I noted that it's at its worst when you're cruising at constant speed and low gear (e.g. 60km/h in 4th) and then need to speed up.

No smoke at idle or start-up. I monitor every start (and let it warm) and check for smoke every time before I shut the vehicle off. When I rev the engine at idle I get black smoke after 3000RPM - likely 3300RPM.

Car drives fine otherwise but I'd rather catch this issue now rather than later.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby rory18 on Mon, 29 May 2017 8:35 +0000

When checking injector values you need to look at more then just the feedback values. Total injected volume gives you a better idea what the injectors are doing. once you get over around 10mm3 you are up for new injectors.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Mon, 29 May 2017 8:40 +0000

rory18 wrote:When checking injector values you need to look at more then just the feedback values. Total injected volume gives you a better idea what the injectors are doing. once you get over around 10mm3 you are up for new injectors.

Cheers mate, appreciate the feedback. My historical diagnostics are here and the Injection Volume at cold has been ~9 at worst and ~5 at warm.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby rory18 on Mon, 29 May 2017 9:06 +0000

Going to be tricky to watch EGR as its getting cooler. Might just have to bite the bullet and pull the intake manifold off and have a look. Very well might be chocked up with soot.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby Mrmal on Tue, 30 May 2017 5:20 +0000

Before you play with the EGR valve and the expense involved - install a $7 plate and block it off fully - this will effectively by pass the valve and if the smoke goes away then it is your EGR - it will throw a P0400 code but wont limp. (that is if it isn't already blocked - in which case it wont be your egr as the plate wont allow enough soot in).

It might pay to check what your stepper motor is doing on the turbo, black smoke is either one of two things:
1 Too much fuel
or
2 Not enough air
"I'm getting the smoke at take-off and roughly 2,000RPM. I noted that it's at its worst when you're cruising at constant speed and low gear (e.g. 60km/h in 4th) and then need to speed up" - on ramp up from idle the turbo hasn't caught up and at 2000rpm are there is a ramp in the fuel table which also is significant if a turbo isn't up to spec.

The turbo stepper motor can get lazy causing a little lag in boost ramp, typically EGR is closed on take off and ramp up from 2000rpm due to throttle position. Can you diag tool monitor vane position?

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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Tue, 30 May 2017 1:04 +0000

Appreciate the advice fellas :) Just gonna add that I'm getting no Check Engine Light or Engine Codes. At times, the smoke is a steady stream (the issue is really intermittent...)

rory18 wrote:Going to be tricky to watch EGR as its getting cooler. Might just have to bite the bullet and pull the intake manifold off and have a look. Very well might be chocked up with soot.

Yeah, am thinking about that...if it's clogged after 25,000km of cleaning (plus a catch can), I'll be disappointed (and heavily considering a plate).

Mrmal wrote:Before you play with the EGR valve and the expense involved - install a $7 plate and block it off fully - this will effectively by pass the valve and if the smoke goes away then it is your EGR - it will throw a P0400 code but wont limp. (that is if it isn't already blocked - in which case it wont be your egr as the plate wont allow enough soot in).

I've got a plate at home that I'll throw in if it gets to that... On the EGR, the opinions I've gotten have said it won't be related to it (especially as my problem is the opposite of usual - can't open enough).

Thanks for the new lead re: the turbo.

on ramp up from idle the turbo hasn't caught up and at 2000rpm are there is a ramp in the fuel table which also is significant if a turbo isn't up to spec.

The turbo stepper motor can get lazy causing a little lag in boost ramp, typically EGR is closed on take off and ramp up from 2000rpm due to throttle position. Can you diag tool monitor vane position?


Will do sometime this weekend (assuming that's VN Turbo Command). The Turbo Stepper Motor is as loud as it usually is when the key is IGN ON (tick-tick-tick-tick). I have been getting a slight electrical buzz that I can hear in the cab (driver's side) when the car is on and at idle though. This is a recent development - potentially related?

Further to this, is there a way to test if the Turbo Motor Driver (p/n 89878-71030) is related to the issue? It's an absolute sty back there (behind the glove box) from the previous owner. It's 89878 in the image below.

Image

Cheers, thanks again for the input.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby LocalFart on Tue, 30 May 2017 2:09 +0000

Hey apSlain are you finding that you are getting boost fluctuations even if you haven't moved your foot on the accelerator as well?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=26877

If so I think we may be having the same issue. happened to me last year also and then stopped when the weather heated up.

I'm going to pull the intake apart soon to see what mine looks like too. So I'll let you know what I find.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Tue, 30 May 2017 6:17 +0000

Hey mate,

Just had a read of your thread. Unbelievable that almost a year to the day, the issue returns.

The differences between what I'm experiencing and you is no CEL or codes. I'll have to measure for boost fluctuations when I can next plug in a scan tool (though I'm not sure what I'm looking for in Techstream to measure boost fluctuations).

I didn't think of the seasonal aspect, to be honest...it might be colder weather but most of my drives nowadays are long distance. For some insight, the car usually gets a 2hr45m/185km sprint two nights every fortnight (Sydney-Central Coast-Newcastle and back).

I changed my position sensor to no help. I believe it was wasted money and my old one was fine.

When I was watching the smoke tonight (out the rear camera), it looked more white/grey than black to be honest. My father and mate say it's black but...eh. I could almost make it smoke at will - cruise at low revs (~1,300RPM), give the accelerator a tap, and once I hear that turbo inhale, smoke.

Might try and record it.

EDIT: now that I mention potential white smoke...it's not directly after start-up, not at idle, injectors seals were just replaced (no carbonisation), sump screen clear, fuel filter(s) replaced at last service, and coolant level has not changed (it's an inch above Full in the overflow bottle and that whole system was flushed by a specialist).
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby Mrmal on Wed, 31 May 2017 5:36 +0000

Post up some MAF figures for the ranges where the smoke is - maybe someone else can then do the same. MAF will tell you the amount of air it is flowing and MAP pressure will tell how much pressure it is under.

Mine are modified turbos so may not be consistent in giving you a comparison, however if you can get your figures and someone elses for a given rev range:
Engine load %
MAF Gm/s
MAP Kpa

You would have a useful comparison tool to check not only air intake restrictions but also boost pressure....
It could be something simple like airflow meter or MAP sensor.

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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby enis.ibrahim on Mon, 30 Jul 2018 8:49 +0000

Hi Everyone,

I have been having the exact same issue.

2000rpm Black/grey smoke.

Startup no smoke, But take offs and it smokes.

Steady smoke when driving around 2000rpm.

Had a whole lot of work done to it trying to fix it.

Complete EGR replaced,

Brand new turbo system,

Full engine clean inc intercooler

Even after doing all this im still getting smoke.

I bit the bullet and had the injectors changed, one week no smoke and than it started smoking again as usual.

My next option is to fit the blanking plate and catch can i have. But its cost me so much money, i hate seeing smoke.

Also just to add , its got a unichip fitted for almost 24months and the smoke started 4 months ago which is why i ruled the chip out..I also had unichip re dyno the new turbo and they are adamant the Afrs are lean.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby Gipsy on Tue, 31 Jul 2018 8:48 +0000

Looks to me like you guys are seeing normal smoke for increased throttle, depends also if manual or automatic transmission. If you give some throttle at low revs its natural to see some smoke because the ECU is adding fuel to compensate for the extra load. Once the ECU sees the load and speed equalised it backs off the fuel to meet the requirements at the new load/speed. Try changing down then adding throttle to let the turbo spin up, more air (boost) will compensate for more fuel. It's a function of turbo lag.

Steady smoke when driving around 2000rpm is probably because your EGR is at the on/off revs so the extra gas (EGR) leans the mix before that. Then as EGR shuts off you get smoke until the ECU compensates.

Maybe you just never noticed until you looked for it. EGR plate would probably not make any noticeable difference but it will reduce carbon in the manifold.

CEL code of course means something is wrong.
Cheers Gipsy :D although I'm sure somebody will challenge that :lol: even Einstein wasn't certain of his theories.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby enis.ibrahim on Sat, 04 Aug 2018 7:55 +0000

I wish it was normal.

I have been driving this car for 3 years and it only started recently. Even mechanics and diesel specialist are shocked at how much soot and amoke comes from revving at idle.The floor turns black literally!.

Im starting to think its a fuel related issue, as the air side of things have all been checked.

I just cant understand , I had my injectors changed and no smoke for about a week and than it started again all of a sudden.It must be fuel related.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby Tyler1993 on Sat, 04 Aug 2018 8:31 +0000

Have you cleaned the maf sensor? It’s often overlooked by mechanics.
I had a similar problem on my last bus.
2 mechanics couldn’t find anything wrong.
Then good old dr google sorted it out.
Maybe I just have s$&!t mechanics, but it’s worth a look
Also clean the map sensor filter while you’re at it.


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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby enis.ibrahim on Mon, 06 Aug 2018 8:42 +0000

Yeah. Brand new Map Filter and MAF sensor was cleaned with MAF sensor cleaner spray.

Will fitting a larger intercooler provide more air and possible reduce smoke? Or will it not make a difference because its all electronic and probably not even an intercooler issue.?
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby martynvella on Tue, 07 Aug 2018 8:02 +0000

Id be looking at maybe a faulty fuel rail pressure sensor, if it is giving a false reading it will make the ECM think it is working ok whilst delivering too much fuel, the ECM works out fuel use from readings from sensors and calculates it so it will think everything is ok, it has no way of knowing if too much fuel is going through the injectors other than the pressure( which could be different to the reading given by the sensor) and the injector open time.

Suggest trying a second hand sensor.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby Gipsy on Tue, 07 Aug 2018 11:17 +0000

Just a few things to consider here

Do you have any engine mods?

How many km?

Fuel consumption?

Engine oil consumption?

What grade of engine oil?

If you don't get any CEL maybe it's all ok and just the ECU boosting fuel to bring the engine up to temp... Have you removed your thermostat? Is the thermostat stuck open? This would make the engine run colder. Mine uses more fuel when cold and I can see extra fuel is going in by my egt thermo probe in the exhaust system. Normally engine hot egt temps are 190_200c but when cold I see 280_300c until engine warms up.
Cheers Gipsy :D although I'm sure somebody will challenge that :lol: even Einstein wasn't certain of his theories.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Thu, 09 Aug 2018 7:50 +0000

Your problem sounds a little more severe than mine, enis.ibrahim. I never resolved the issue but the car hasn't missed a beat in the year and a bit that the issue's been around. Then again, flooring it at idle doesn't blow plumes. If I recall correctly, my issue started after I had the rocker cover (and gasket) replaced as the old one was cracked.

I haven't had much luck with mechanics diagnosing it, as responses I've got ranged from "it's a diesel, it'll smoke" to "so, what do you want me to do about it"? My current mechanic's taken a look and has said the smoke's not bad enough to worry about, but I did drop it off this morning for a service and my mate following me mentioned that the smoke was noticeable at take-off and when I was "giving it" (I wasn't).

I plan to get it looked at more closely at my next service (after today's)...it'll be 170,000km by the odometer but 200,000km by the book. I've left the issue to the side as the car's been fine and most of my drives are longer distances, and I've got plenty to still try in regards to diagnosis (when I get the time).

If someone has ideas/if it helps anyone else, these are my historical diagnostics. The code's just related to a key I programmed in.

2006/Manual/4WD with 160,000km. No big engine mods, just a catch can and secondary fuel filter. Fuel is probably something like 650km, engine oil is 15W-40 Penrite (sometimes 15W-50). Never noticed an issue with consumption.
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Re: Black Smoke, Cruise-Revs

Postby apSlain on Mon, 08 Jul 2019 8:04 +0000

Hi all, bit of an update. Note - I mention 200,000km service but the vehicle's done 170,000km.

The good news is that a set of new injectors has cleared the issue. My previous injectors were only 55,000km old but were remanufactured (so who knows the overall age despite being blueprint, etc.). All the diagnostics were good and I didn't really feel a performance issue with them but a new set of injectors and pipes has solved my smoke problems. Now, I don't know if the smoke was contributing to any performance or longevity issues...the car does feel a little more responsive but this could be placebo.

I only switched them out 'cause it was the 200,000km service and the top had to come off anyway. If I didn't have a major service coming up (this was my first tappet inspection - hadn't been checked in the 40,000km intervals)...I probably wouldn't have gotten them changed because of the hit on the wallet. I also hear commonly that new injectors resolve the issue for a few hundred kilometres and then things revert so let's see how it goes.

The bad news is that post-service, I got my first Check Engine Light; the dreaded P0400, ten minutes after I left the mechanic. Cleared it, drove about 40km, back on. Car's going back in to see if a vacuum line has been left astray but I personally couldn't see anything left off. No limp mode though; just the light. I don't think this is a clogged EGR; the system was cleaned out at 120,000km (though unsure whether the cooler was cleaned). If you've followed this saga, you'd see the diagnostics above about my EGR Lift Sensor Volt % not reaching over 44.1% but still operating below that value. Now, it's stuck at something like 13.2% static - code cleared or not.

Something is definitely wrong with the system and whatever was touched during the injector replacement has impacted it...just not sure what. The advice I always get is plate up but I don't want to go down that route nor would it solve this particular issue.

This is now frustrating me despite not really feeling performance woes :(
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