Idle up?

General discussion of basically anything Hilux related

Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 6:17 +0000

lmichie wrote:Trying to recap, what I was thinking and olcoolone was suggesting, if the "system" was switched in at 0.8V and 1.6V so they are "invisible" then switch out the tps so only the "system" is supplying signal. Then manipulate the "system" to supply idle up signals eg 1.2V and 2.0V so the gap remains constant. Then reverse to go back to accelerator control. Could be done with a multi position switch and some relays. to make sure the sequence works.


You wouldn't have to use relays to switch and isolate the output from the ECU to the input of the pedal, you could just use a two pole switch....... if the reference voltage going into the pedal was 5v and only the outputs from the pedal changed with a differential of 0.8v between the two then all you would have to do is introduce a voltage on the output side of the pedal.

If you concerned about the output from the ECU being upset by introducing a voltage to the pedal output..... there is no concern unless you increase that voltage higher then the actual voltage out of the ECU.

:arrow: Example...... If the output voltage from the ECU is 5v and the output voltage from the pedal was 2v and you introduce a 3v signal to the output of the pedal then the original 5v output from the ECU would still be 5v, the output of the pedal would then increase to 3v...... if instead of 3v and say you introduced a voltage 7v to the pedal output then there may be a problem.......

The TPS has nothing to do with the pedal and RPM.

What you have to do is fool the ECU into thinking the pedal is pushed down that will increase the throttle movement on the inlet and the TPS will follow feeding back information to the ECU for fuel and timing to keep it at an optimal burn rate.

The TPS just relays information...... if you increased the voltage ate the TPS you would not increase the RPM...... you will only make the engine run lean or rich.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby lmichie on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 6:30 +0000

I mixed up my sensors. I actually meant switch out the pedal sensor.

The only reason I was thinking relays is you would only have to rotate the switch through the steps rather than switching the external system in, the n switch the acceleratpor pedalout, then switch to increase the signal voltage. To trial it I would just use some switches but the relays would simplify normal use.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 6:48 +0000

Still you could use one on/on two pole switch to do it... the one with six terminals.

Like this one but two pole ( the one in the photo is a single pole)....

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?q=on/on ... x=36&ty=17
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Re: Idle up?

Postby lmichie on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 7:40 +0000

Exept there are three things to switch two channels in a make then break sequence for the first one then a make only for the last one. I 'll try to draw it up so it makes sence when I get a chance.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby andy666 on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 8:40 +0000

Switching out the pedal may cause a fault if the ECM need a constant circuit between the reference 5v and the earth return.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Tue, 26 Jun 2012 8:53 +0000

lmichie wrote:Exept there are three things to switch two channels in a make then break sequence for the first one then a make only for the last one. I 'll try to draw it up so it makes sence when I get a chance.


Don't think it will matter.... change over relays that dump a positive load to earth don't cause any problems.


andy666 wrote:Switching out the pedal may cause a fault if the ECM need a constant circuit between the reference 5v and the earth return.


Andy... you will be switching between the pedal and the ECU input, the ECU input is the variable voltage side.

I still think you can introduce a voltage into the ECU input and leave everything connected.

End of the day the ECU isn't going to know the introduced voltage isn't coming from the pedal..... all it wants to know is what the voltage is to increase the RPM.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby StevenS on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 4:53 +0000

That was my original plan - increase the ecu input slighty above what the pedal feeds it at idle. The problem is that if the pedal is still providing that same input to the ecu you will create a voltage difference between your input and the pedals input - your higher voltage may actually run back into the pedal thus dropping the voltage even lower than idle etc
A diode on the pedals output would solve this, but diodes typically introduce a voltage drop of between .5 and 1v. The problem reverses when you push the pedal and the difference goes the other way.

Either way there are methods to overcome this and I'll be trying a few this weekend
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 6:24 +0000

What ever voltage the ECU outputs to the pedal, the output from the pedal can never be greater.

It doesn't matter how many 2v feeds you put on the pedal output..... it will still only see 2v, 5v is greater then 2v and the output from the ECU to the pedal will only see 5v constant.

You will not get 7v, if there is feed back to the ECU output it will not matter.

The output voltage from the pedal should never exceed the input voltage...... if the input from the ECU is 5v then the output from the pedal will be between 0-5v.

What voltages are you getting on the output from the pedal?
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Re: Idle up?

Postby StevenS on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 6:39 +0000

You misread me. By some voltage flowing the other way you will reduce the input to the ECU, different to what was expected hence the error code
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 3:11 +0000

???????....... you have lost me, hang on I'll read it all from the start.

Is this right...... the voltage going into the pedal is 5v (output from ECU)....... the voltage going out of the pedal (input to ECU) is variable between 1-5v......... there is a differential voltage of 0.8v between circuit 1 and circuit 2 of the pedal and the voltage is pure DC, not pwm.

Is that right????
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Re: Idle up?

Postby StevenS on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 3:33 +0000

Spot on
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 6:21 +0000

MMMMM........ you might be better looking at the throttle body servo motor and seeing if you can fool that.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby StevenS on Wed, 27 Jun 2012 6:34 +0000

Diesel = no throttle body (least not that is relevant here)
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Idle up?

Postby Mattya on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 7:48 +0000

What about using the cruise control, but instead of referencing vehicle speed, you go from the engine rpm?
I think it would be a much simpler way to have complete Idle control.
Having the brake cancel it could get annoying tho.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:02 +0000

StevenS wrote:Diesel = no throttle body (least not that is relevant here)


All EFI vehicles have to have a throttle body that increase and decrease the amount of air entering the engine....... it's what that flap thingy is in the air inlet track is and the TPS is on the other side of it...... the accelerator pedal controls it by a servo motor. :o

Don't know if you have looked on the Hilux wiring diagram but there is this thing on there called the "throttle body assembly" and it has 6 wires going to it.




Mattya wrote:What about using the cruise control, but instead of referencing vehicle speed, you go from the engine rpm?
I think it would be a much simpler way to have complete Idle control.
Having the brake cancel it could get annoying tho.


Not every Hilux has cruise control and if it does you have either factory on a select model or aftermarket.

We are in the processors of doing exactly that on new VE commodores via software.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby Batman on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:32 +0000

Guys,

I have tried to read and understand this with little luck. However you blokes seem pretty switched on and obviously know your stuff!

So why not approach it from a different angle? Add some low tech and high tech to solve the problem.

I have had a quick look and it looks as though there is enough room to mount some sort of actuator (like a turbo stepper motor or door lock actuator) to act on the pedal lever arm that if controlled by a switch of some sort could be used to drive the pedal manually rather than worrying about trying to use an electrical signal and fooling ecus and fault codes and so on? You could make it infinitely variable or maybe have two or three positions. The pedal would still operate as normal via the foot or automatically via an electrical control switch and actuator and you wouldn't have to stuff with electrics and ecus and so on.

Worth a thought anyway.

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Re: Idle up?

Postby olcoolone on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 1:24 +0000

Batman wrote:Guys,

I have tried to read and understand this with little luck. However you blokes seem pretty switched on and obviously know your stuff!

So why not approach it from a different angle? Add some low tech and high tech to solve the problem.

I have had a quick look and it looks as though there is enough room to mount some sort of actuator (like a turbo stepper motor or door lock actuator) to act on the pedal lever arm that if controlled by a switch of some sort could be used to drive the pedal manually rather than worrying about trying to use an electrical signal and fooling ecus and fault codes and so on? You could make it infinitely variable or maybe have two or three positions. The pedal would still operate as normal via the foot or automatically via an electrical control switch and actuator and you wouldn't have to stuff with electrics and ecus and so on.

Worth a thought anyway.

Steve.


The biggest issue with drive by wire trying to manually maintained engine RPM is it will always fluctuate with the slightest movement....... We tried this on the VE Commodores we are working on, the prototype we did was manual control and the RPM would go between 1200RPM and 2000Rpm for no reason plus it was very finicky to get the RPM just right.

Software driven is way better.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby StevenS on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 2:07 +0000

olcoolone wrote:
StevenS wrote:Diesel = no throttle body (least not that is relevant here)


All EFI vehicles have to have a throttle body that increase and decrease the amount of air entering the engine....... it's what that flap thingy is in the air inlet track is and the TPS is on the other side of it...... the accelerator pedal controls it by a servo motor. :o .


I stated the Hilux doesn't have a throttle body that is RELEVANT here. The Diesel engine's butterfly assembly in the intake path isn't used like a traditional petrol throttle body, instead it serves other purposes such as pollution control (EGR system) and shutting off the intake when the engine is turned off to minimise the rough shutdown normally associated with Diesel engines.
The ECU controls the revs via the injectors.
For example as per mentioned in other threads I have drilled a hole in my butterfly of around 10mm so that when the EGR is blocked there is still sufficient airflow to the engine. It didn't affect the idle speed or throw any engine codes, which would be the case if it was directly responsible for the engine speed.


I found a heavy duty solenoid the other day that was powerful enough to move the throttle pedal about 10mm or so - the problem is that they draw a huge deal of amps and tend to overheat when they remain engaged. I wouldn't feel too comfortable with one turned on for perhaps even hours on end. A stepper motor would probably work very well, however I haven't yet given up on the electronic solution as of yet.

I honestly don't want to debunk anyone's theories or ideas (anymore than I may have already) but I'm very keen to see people give their ideas a go.
I have 2 plans I will hopefully get a chance to try this weekend, one being to substitute the 5v feed line with a 5.3v regulated input and ground the factory output through a resistor.
The other is to do what was already tried with a POT on the return line being fed from the 5V feed, however with some diodes in place to make sure the voltage flows in the right direction.

A third I'm considering (if I can work out how the hell to wire it) is to use a transistor directly from the 5V feed into the input, using the throttle pedal to control the transistor's gain.
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Re: Idle up?

Postby andy666 on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 6:43 +0000

SUCCESS!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Finally cracked the secret of the high idle.
https://vimeo.com/44856039
Its not a hand throttle that is adjustable on the fly (to hard at the moment), but a high idle switch. The high idle however is user adjustable by a small dial on a circuit board at the back of the switch. Anywhere from factory idle up to about 2500rpm.

Anyone interested? I'll make up some kits, if I can get at least 10 orders.
New topic started for this: http://www.newhilux.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=14355

Does anyone know how to embed a vimeo movie?
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Idle up?

Postby Qwerty on Thu, 28 Jun 2012 7:50 +0000

Please tell me compatible with 1gr FE ??

A switch mount ? Hard to install for pleb like me ?
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