2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

What were your warranty claims and recall information

Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby wnewton on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 3:29 +0000

I still see no science behind the comments proving the failure cause, just a lot of speculation. FYI the amount of petrol is 20 litres per 400 litres of diesel so its very low (less than 5%) There is however a lot of good comments so far and a lot to think about. Hey FODFA I didnt see any pre requisite when I signed up saying I cant have an opinion until I have posted 100 times. Your an internet chat site troll and you make other genuine people on this site angry. Thanks everyone else keep the ideas coming.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby jogal on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 3:39 +0000

I know of two others that are going through the same problem . Bang bang! They are having to fork it out themselves.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Qwerty on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 3:51 +0000

Yeah I think it's a given risk that if you start modifying things you may well be "on your own" in event of failure.

Precisely the reason I bought one already out of warranty. First thing I did was start chopping into it with suspension electronics etc. no point throwing out brand new parts just paid top dollar for or paying premium for warranty covered hardware that is voided anyway.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Qwerty on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 4:32 +0000

wnewton wrote:I still see no science behind the comments proving the failure cause, just a lot of speculation. FYI the amount of petrol is 20 litres per 400 litres of diesel so its very low (less than 5%) There is however a lot of good comments so far and a lot to think about. Hey FODFA I didnt see any pre requisite when I signed up saying I cant have an opinion until I have posted 100 times. Your an internet chat site troll and you make other genuine people on this site angry. Thanks everyone else keep the ideas coming.


Bloke , given none of us including you really have any idea what has actually happened , aren't we all , you included, speculating?

Sorry but there's no need to play the man , and I think you've done that. Nekelec probably shouldn't tell you to suck it up, but other than that what he said makes perfect sense in my mind. I'm not playing any sides here, but there's no need to denigrate ... The mark of this forum is that threads very rarely ever get "nasty" unlike many other forums.

As I Said above , any major modification to engines puts you in the field "on your own". I afraid notions that this isn't justified , is just wishful but non realistic.

Sure thing , d4d does go bang too easily. For sure. Hell, modern high pressure td is guilty of this across the board. But heavily modifying the engine , even with didfferent fuels , and then arguing for warranty under the notion of "it should theoretically work" is just not going to fly. (As much as that sucks!!!)

I feel for ya mate but it is buyer beware. Pushing engines past their conservative factory specs Increases dangers. This is common knowledge. Should chip makers be more ominous in warning consumers ? Maybe they should, or maybe it's just an accepted status quo.
Last edited by Qwerty on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 4:40 +0000, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby outbackjoe on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 4:36 +0000

FODFA wrote:Personally I think chip manufacturers have a lot to answer for, but thats just my opinion and why I don't have or ever intend to fit one to my vehicles.


I agree. Chip manufacturers are not being honest about the potential risks and voiding warranty. Can't really blame one manufacturer specifically - it's hard when every other company says there are no risks, the customer will just go elsewhere. There needs to be a collective change. Chip manufacturers should be open about the risks and effect on warranty. They can educate customers on how to mitigate the risk. For example recommending the installation of an on / off switch or making it standard and telling the customer to turn it off whenever they don't need the extra power. Telling the customer to use the lowest tune they can get away with rather than using the highest tune that doesn't throw a fault code. Telling the customer to service the vehicle according to heavy duty interval in the service manual - chips increase temperature and soot production which degrades oil faster. Tell customers if they flog it with the chip then they are likely going to suffer a premature failure. Mitigate the risk as much as possible and there's a good chance of having a long living engine. Still not as good a chance as without a chip, but good enough to make having a chip a reasonable thing to do. If someone is happy with the risk then there's no problem getting the benefit of extra power.

Wnewton I'd ask Toyota to write you a formal letter that you want to take to small claims court to use against the chip manufacturer. Tell Toyota it is in their interest as they are getting a lot of bad press from these failures. Is it possible to get an independent lab to assess it and provide a report? It may set a precedent so that in future the chip manufacturers have to be more transparent. Or it will force the chip manufacturer to come up with some evidence to prove the chip wasn't at fault.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Qwerty on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 4:47 +0000

Look at f1 and top fuel burner engines. They're good for one race. Pushed so so so far that they are hammered. Different ball game but similar ideology.

It's like cranking up turbos and supercharges in sports cars , you can get obscene performance increases but really are pushing the engine internals.

Even a heavy right foot or too many cold start short journeys will reduce engine longevity.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby outbackjoe on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 5:34 +0000

Yeah, it's all different shades of grey of the same thing. You can't get something for nothing.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Alby on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 5:37 +0000

Before you start blaming anyone you need to find out what went wrong. YOU have created the blurry grey line with your Toyota warranty and I think they are well within their rights to baulk at any responsibility until it can be proven that they are at fault.
I think you need to have the damage assessed independently so that you can then look to seek recourse from whoever is at fault. You are going to have to pay for this and then look to being reinsured by the guilty party.

I also don't think that Chip sellers have any more responsibility to notify buyers of voiding warranty than any other aftermarket accessory you fit to your vehicle. The same rules apply to all the ARB gear, electrical accessories, non genuine parts, brake pads, filters tow bars blah blah blah. The dealer doesn't need to tell you they are not covered, it is common sense and you have to assess the risks and responsibilities yourself and deal with the consiquences If needed
On the internet you can be anything you want. It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid!
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby wnewton on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 6:08 +0000

Good advice thanks I will post Toyota's final report next week
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby wnewton on Sun, 17 Mar 2013 9:34 +0000

If anyone is interested in an explanation on how the petrol system works this is what sold me on it
http://www.chipit.com.au/product-info/d ... on-system/
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby kyle300exc on Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:13 +0000

Members this is a very productive debate providing some useful information to all.
Please refrain from personal critisizm of fellow members as it will not be tolerated. We appreciate there is a lot of emotion involved but we are all adults here.
Consider this a warning.

The Mod Team.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby kickinback on Sun, 17 Mar 2013 10:17 +0000

wnewton wrote:If anyone is interested in an explanation on how the petrol system works this is what sold me on it
http://www.chipit.com.au/product-info/d ... on-system/



Wow. That was a big read for a Sunday. If they are recommending it then they should warrant it. I have always found that talk is cheap though. They already have your money so why should they care. I think legal action will be your only option and it we be with chip-it, not Toyota.

Best of luck.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby NeKeleC on Tue, 19 Mar 2013 11:28 +0000

Hello i've been away for a few days and what a read...

I will start by saying yes maybe I shouldn't have said suck it up maybe that was a bit harsh... but the truth sometimes is.

I respect the others who have backed me with my comments as they do not come from nowhere, my father is a mechanic and I have been working on cars and building engines since I was a kid. No i'm not a mechanic but thats only because I don't have the piece of paper saying so (father said he would beat me if I become one so I became an electrician instead lol).

to wnewton,

When it comes to modifying cars all manufacturers state it voids warrenty full stop, Which is why I waited till my truck rolled over to 100,000 before I put a smaller pulley on the blower to up the pressure on my truck. How can you say adding petrol won't hurt the engine do you actually know why they add petrol??? the reason for this is to up the octane rating giving you more bang ie more power increasing octane increases the amount of energy thus increasing pressure between the head and piston at top dead center which gives more heat and more bang ie more power.. are you starting to see the picture.
Higher pressure in the fuel rail is designed to give you more power by sqeezing more fuel in to the cylinder in the allowed time which gives you more power ... more fuel in the same space gives bigger bang more power. I remember the old flat track bike we built that used to run on a blend of petrol and methonol we used methonol in a small percentage to up the octane of the fuel and provide more capacity of energy into the same space providing more bang a lot more... a honda 125 motor that would do 14,000 rpm and keep up with standard 500cc bikes BUT.... it needed to be pulled down every 20 hours as it would destroy the tops of pistons and wear out main bearings.

Still say i'm ill informed....

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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby wnewton on Tue, 19 Mar 2013 6:30 +0000

Neil you are partly right but I refer you to the link I posted so you can get a full understanding of how it works straight from the horses mouth...Chipit. They still claim in conversations with me today that the system is 100% safe and their engineer & R & D team will go into bat to defend it.

I to have a degree in engineering and have a reasonable understanding of how things work ;) however I am looking at spending a couple of thousand to prove things either way with an engineer who specializes in engine failures, this is his full time job as a consultant and his knowledge and metallurgical analysis of all components involved will solve the problem and hopefully reveal once and for all what caused the problem.

You really need to look at the complete chipit system with all its feedback systems to understand its not just hap hazardously pouring petrol into the motor & hoping for the best.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby outbackjoe on Tue, 19 Mar 2013 9:07 +0000

If you proceed with the independent engineer it would be super interesting to know the results. Post them up when you get them.

A few things are wrong on the chipit info. An important one that is easy to verify is "more complete burn" claim.

Every fuel saving device claims a "more complete burn". There are plenty of sources that explain why these fuel saving devices don't work. There is less than 1% gains to be made from unburnt fuel in a modern engine. Have a search.

Also, faster burn does not mean better. Why is faster better? The burn rate is designed by the manufacturer so that the peak pressure is reached at the correct time to extract maximum energy. Faster means higher peak pressure which is more stressful for the motor, and peak pressure is reached at the wrong time, which is less efficient.

Also it claims diesels are 80% efficient? I think the value is more like 40%. This is also easily verified. Not that the number matters, it's just more incorrect information which seems to be the norm with chip manufacturers.

From what I can ascertain, petrol injection is just another way of dumping more fuel in the engine. Nothing more fancy than that.

There are sources to show that more power = more stress = greater chance of failure, regardless of any other conditions. I can help explain if anyone is interested. Try here:

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/solid_me ... hcycle.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material) look under s-n curve
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Talktheroo on Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:32 +0000

Luxi46 wrote:
Talktheroo wrote:Alby, it's just all marketing


Talktheroo wrote:Engine oils actually have got better over the years.


On the one hand you say it's all marketing, and then you go on to explain that engine technology and oils have actually gotten better. If engine oils and technology have really gotten better (which I agree with), would that not be the reason why Toyota can recommend longer service intervals instead of having to resort to marketing? My lux is a 2007 UK diesel, and I've followed the recommended oil service intervals of 10.000 k's, without trouble so far. The marketing arguement sounds a bit weak to me. Solely because from a marketing point of view, it doesn't make sense to market your engine to be serviced at 10.000 k's, only to have it fail in customers' hands way earlier. That opens a company up to law-suits.

And also, why are you mentioning the EGR as being there to filter out the soot in the oil?
- Firstly, the EGR system isn't down in the sump.
- Secondly, the EGR's purpose is to bring NOx levels down. Toyota's implementation by nature actually re-introduces soot into the system.
- Thirdly, the DPF is in the exhaust system, after the catalytic converter**. It's purpose is to filter diesel particulates to prevent them being blown out into the air we breathe. How is it helping to keep engine oil clean?

** edited the location of the DPF for better clarity -

Well, the 10,000 km thing first. By the time you have problems the vehicle will be well and truly out of warranty, well in theory. I know you are going to find this one upsetting, the life of a vehicle is only the warranty period anyway. That comment comes from a number of dealerships that I have had discussions with over a number of issues.
The second one there. The EGR system enters in through the turbo and then up through the throttle body and the inlet manifold. The oil residue is thrown back into the engine for combustion but a lot of it doesn't burn and finds its way down to the sump. Part of that make up is soot. It doesn't reduce the soot as this in part is the black goo that you find stuck to the inlet manifold and associated components for anyone who has had the inlet manifold off.
The third comment. For engines with DPF systems installed the system filters out the soot and other gases as the exhaust gases pass through the exhaust system and are not recycled as in the system that is installed on the 1KZ-TEs and the 1KD-FTVs. Have a look at the 1KZ-TE and the 1KD-FTV and you will see that it is the same system over the exhaust manifold side of the engine. The 1KZ-TE's service intervals for oil change out is 5,000 kms. The 1KD-FTV's change out is 10,000 kms, and that's where I get my market fluff thing from because it's the same system.
The only difference is the EGR cooler on the inlet manifold side which just cools the EGRs. That's got more to do with helping out the intercooler with it's function and the EGRs are cooler as they re enter the cylinders.
Now, with the technology thing, I am only making reference to engine oils, nothing else.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Bob E Dazzla on Wed, 20 Mar 2013 5:48 +0000

Hi wnewton,
tough luck about the engine - I think that different people can read things differently. When I read the Chip It info in the link you posted, a few things jumped out at me:
1. This is a new system 'pioneered' by Chip IT
2. More total volume of fuel is being put into the chamber - this will definitely add extra strain to the piston
3. Chip It state if you are looking for a performance mod that out-performs all other performance mods you have come to the right place'
4. Chip It state 'we can boast increased midrange torque figures of up to 50% for most vehicles'
5. The warranty is only for the Chip It system - there is no mention of manufacturer's warranty.
6. Chip It state '10ltrs of petrol will last approx100 litres of diesel' - more than 10% petrol (the system only comes on at half throttle) is a diesel engine!
7. The Chip It terms and conditions of sale and warranty state 'Customers should also check the vehicles warranty agreement terms and conditions before fitting any equipment to a vehicle to see how the item will affect their warranty' - in fact, all of the terms and conditions state that Chip It is not responsible for engine failure.
8. The Chip It terms and conditions state 'It is a legal requirement for CHIP IT to inform its customers that this modification is for racing or off-road use only and hat use on road is not allowed in some states or territories'.

I am not surprised that Toyota are not helpful. I am also not surprised that they never mentioned the chip. That is not their concern. I doubt that you ever asked them about it either. Your only hope (as far as I can see) is with Chip It but I doubt that they will be very helpful. There is nothing on their page which states that the engine won't blow up.

I know that this doesn't help you now - you probably didn't even read the terms and conditions. I know that I don't on most mods I have done. I guess this is a lesson for us all.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough - Albert Einstein
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby cockyr44 on Wed, 20 Mar 2013 7:25 +0000

Pretty amazing that somebody can modify their vehicle – especially fitting petrol injection to a diesel engine – and expect warranty from the vehicle manufacturer when the engine goes BANG. :lol:

Good luck with that...
My other off-road vehicle is a Helicopter.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby ultrav on Wed, 20 Mar 2013 7:41 +0000

I was told told that Toyota may be reducing the Price of new D4D short motors, not short if it will be a promo/ run out or perm Price change. Possibly a rather significant price reduction.
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Re: 2012 Engine Failure - warranty claim rejected

Postby Hilux Max on Wed, 20 Mar 2013 7:55 +0000

I think you've got the info wrong

Short motors retail for $4,500 or so,

Long Motors retails for around the $11,000 mark.

Theres no way they would be selling these at a loss.....there no reason for it.
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