Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

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Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Scottyt on Thu, 21 Aug 2008 6:29 +0000

Wondering if anyone has used or is using Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive? The reason I ask, is the foreman from one of the Toyota dealers said it was a good product.

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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby david allan on Thu, 21 Aug 2008 8:02 +0000

there is a thread on this topic.
But in short i actually was enquiring about this to.
Talked to a tech at toyota & he said you shouldnt use it as its not good for your common rail diesels.

I phoned the toyota help line & after a couple of hours they got back to me & said that we should not use it on our common rail diesels.
It is designed for the older diesels.
They said something about that the additive can clog up the system
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby olcoolone on Fri, 22 Aug 2008 9:14 +0000

I think you will find it is not for the D4D engines only the older ones.

Toyota recommends no fuel additives are to be used and will void warranty.
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Rich on Sat, 23 Aug 2008 8:31 +0000

I Have used it a few times in my Hilux. I havn't had any problems. It's meant to clean injectors etc and our Hiluxs have injectors. The common rail is just how the fuel is delivered to them.
I can't see it doing any harm otherwise there would be a warning in our manuals.

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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby olcoolone on Sat, 23 Aug 2008 9:51 +0000

Big difference between the diesel injection systems of old and the new common rail type,incredibly high pressure, finer machining tolerances, micro finished surfaces and faster, finer more accurate piezo injectors just to name a few.

Don't get the two mixed up as they are nothing like each other.

Diesel injector cleaner can cause a lot of damage to micro finished surfaces and finer spray patterns of injectors.

Diesel injector cleaner was useful in old style systems mostly due to how dirty they would burn fuel, how bad the old fuel was and filter microns, with the new CRD you have much finer control and spray pattern of fuel so it burns optimally, the filters are of a smaller micron and fuel is a lot cleaner.

Toyota don't recommend it for the D4D series of engines.

CRD systems are a whole new ball game.

Why do you think Biodiesel and water causes up $10,000 damage to them when you would not have a problem with the old style systems.

If you think you get a benefit out of using injector cleaner keep using it, personally I don't see the advantage and from the training courses I have done it is scary.

You would be better of fitting a secondary fuel filter with water trap before the main pump and filter.

Toyota don't even allow their dealers to do professional diesel injection cleaning with a proper machine on CRD's.
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby david allan on Sat, 23 Aug 2008 4:48 +0000

Your spot on mate.

Thats basically what toyota told me.
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby berniecam on Sat, 23 Aug 2008 5:34 +0000

Ditto, been told same thing by my dealer in full agreement. :D
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Scottyt on Sat, 23 Aug 2008 6:31 +0000

Yep, no conditioner is going in my ute! Spoke with the snr tech at the Toyota dealer today, he said keep away from it. His advice, if I am that worried about dirty fuel, place a second filter/ water seperator in, direct from the tank. As per the thread in general discussion.

Cheers

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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby oldrev on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 5:13 +0000

All the info seems to say dont use additives.
One point i'd like to bring up is the fuel companies put additives in to suit the application ie. antifreeze in there winter blend and alpine deisel ,, antifoaming additive and deodorant of some sort in caltex vortex deisel so the rich end of town dont have smelly deisel frothing up and smelling nasty all over them when they fuel up there merc, bmw/ porsche etc.
so where do we go from there dont but winterblend ? dont go into the cold country ? dont use fancy vortex or bp ultimate ? .
one bloke says yes the next guys says no way .
does the bloke that says yes use it know better or does the guy who says no know better or doesn't know at all ?.
common rail technology has been around for years now the cummins in my work boat is an example except the injectors are operated mechanically.
i'm a little confused because the main difference i can see is computer controlled electronic injectors .
anyway just something to chew on its a bit early for this stuff
regards
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Rich on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 6:20 +0000

I understand your point.

The local Toyota service manager (who is also a mechanic) was the one who sold me the diesel injector cleaner (some time ago) and he knows my truck is a new Hilux.

I am on my second tin of the stuff.

You guys are scaring me...I have some in there at the moment!

I have also tried the Chemtech additive in the past, to ensure no algae etc etc.

A question for everyone - Is there anyone on here that has had problems caused by diesel fuel additives??

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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby oldrev on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 7:17 +0000

rich
i'm using chemtech diesel power @ 1 ml / litre and will continue to do so until i can see a obvious reason why i shouldn't.
just another point to all this which is a bit way off but the cleaner our fuel systems are the less work for all the diesel techs ?
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby olcoolone on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 8:10 +0000

Ken how do you know what it is doing inside the system.

It may cost you big money in the future.

What do you think Toyota's or Denso's reason for not doing it is?

Why do you need fuel additive?

Don't you think Toyota dealers would jump at the chance to make some more money buy selling you a diesel service/flush yearly or diesel additive every month or so.

Any other diesel engine they will say do it but not D4D's

This is why D4D's can not run on the old high sulphate diesel and why Toyota never bought in the D4D engines before.

I'm not against fuel additives and conditioners but when you see first hand the damage they cause on CRD fuel systems you would change your mind.

I think it is a fantastic idea to use fuel additives and conditioners in old style systems.Good luck

Ask Toyota about the warranty regarding CRD systems and fuel additives.

Their is no need for fuel additives in todays engines with better fuel but if it makes you feel all fuzzy and happy keep doing it.

You might think I very stern on this subject....if I can save people a lot of money and hardship from what i say then I have done well.

Remember to keep a spare $5,000 to 10,000 free for repairs that may not be under warranty.

To many people treat CRD fuel systems like the old dinosaur systems of yesteryear.



Have a look at this link and specially "pedro" reply from Toyota. http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php ... uel+filter







Good Luck
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby oldrev on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 7:44 +0000

olcoolone
can you tell me exactly what using an additive will do to my fuel system ???????
i've spoke to some fairly reputable blokes in the fuel injection game and they will all tell you a different story.
some will recommend a certian product some wont
does any one really know ?
ya never stop learning something

good luck
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby TOMUCH on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 7:57 +0000

I have been slugged for fuel additive on every service my Ute has gone in for, The dealer says it is recommended and will only take it off the list of things to be done if I sign a waiver stating that if I state not to use it and there are problems my warranty would be void.. I did tell them to stop usuing it as there is nothing in the manual about aving to use an additive....go figure. They are also slugging me for engine oil flush.. another product I dont belive I need. I do use a fuel additive, it is simply a biocide. not an injector cleaner. It also helps to dispers water (in small quantities) and I am more careful about where I fill up. I would ask the dealer to put it in writing that you need the injector cleaner for your vehicle, then send a copy to Toyota for confirmation. See how you go.. at least if nothing else, you will have a reply in writing.

Cheers TOMUCH
DONT FOLLOW ME ...... YOU WONT MAKE IT !
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Brett B on Sun, 24 Aug 2008 8:06 +0000

I think the standard reply for all vehicle manufactures would be don't use additives.

alcoolone, what addititives caused the damage to the CRD fuel systems you have seen, Naphthalene, Butoxyethanol, Nitroglycerin or dish washing liquid ?

You can bet Toyota don't and haven't done any R&D on 'additives' how could they where would they start - check additive brand A and then move all the way to brand X ???? I don't think so.

They don't know what your adding to the fuel in the way of the additive so how could they sanction it, some guys might want to add some liquid nitro additive for added performance and economy, another might want something to clean the injectors while I might want to use an additive it to prevent the diesel turning to weird when I park my truck in the snow for 2 weeks.

If Toyota say yes its fine to use additives exactly what additive or chemical in this instance would they be agreeing to, where would the line in the sand be drawn.

The company I work for manufactures our equipment in Germany, I get end-users each day call me and ask, can I use your product for use on B material, I say the unit was designed to be used with material C only R&D has only been done on C its reliability with B material is unknown, I suggest you don't use it - I now know our companies interests are protected.

I do not say for one moment additives wont do some damage because I dont know what is in the 'additive' and I am not a chemist but all additives cant be bad, I have used the same additive in my fuel system for 3 years and I have had no problems, not a hint of a problem.

I think if anyone is concerned about the additive you use our want to use contact the additive manufacture for assurance and recommendations, if you get no answers move to another brand.
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Rich on Mon, 25 Aug 2008 7:28 +0000

Has anyone had any problems with their trucks that were definately diagnosed as being caused by fuel additives?

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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby olcoolone on Mon, 25 Aug 2008 7:52 +0000

Most fuel additives and cleaners are alcohol or solvent based.

Being alcohol or solvent based means they remove oil film, oil deposits and lower the lubrication properties of diesel, CRD systems are micro machined and finished unlike the old style systems that did no requirer micro finishing.

The reason CRD systems have to be micro finished is the extreme pressure the injection side works under, standard injection systems may work from 150 to 300 psi at the most and CRD systems work up to 20,000...thats right 100 times more then a standard system.

If the components are not micro machined and finished they would loose there durability and precise fuel delivery properties.

Why do you think water in diesel is such a big problem with CRD systems and not the old type systems, why do you think it cost up to $10,000 to repair a CRD system compared to maybe $4,000 for the old type, why do you think if a CRD system fails nearly everything has to be replaced.

This is another reason why Biodiesel is a big non no for CRD systems.

Using additives might be fine for 40,000 to 100,000 kilometers but after that it might become expensive.

Problems are not going to show up overnight.

Why do you need to use additives and conditioners in diesel anyway, it is so old school thinking?

The fuel we get here in Australia is some of the best in the world.

Australia use to have not so good fuel and that is why we never got Hi Tech vehicles here until 3 years ago.

The rest of the world had direct injection petrol and CRD diesel vehicles about 5 years before we got them.

As I said before I don't really care if you use fuel additives ....it's your money and your choice and if you think you are doing the right thing keep on doing it.

But why add something that is not needed?

One last thing can you let me know how you know fuel additives are not damaging you engine and if they aren't how they are benefiting you?
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Brett B on Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:09 +0000

The debate will go on forever and I do like your passion for the topic alcoolone:-)

Alpine diesel is apparently not avalible in my area, I fuel up in Melbourne and either me or the misses and kids drives up into the Ski Fields we can leave the vehicle for days or overnight, camping in the snow is good fun on a nice night also. I use the additive as piece of mind to protect the fuel in the cold.

Alpine diesel which according to Shell contains several added 'additives' is avalible from towns closer to the alpine area but I prefer to drive straight up there without refuelling and without the worry of picking up bad fuel and water from some of these unknown (unknown to me) small service stations.

This to me is the benefit, we could debate this for weeks and go around in circles and at the end, I cant tell you this isn't damaging the system and no one can really tell me it does.

I cant help but wonder if the additives shell add to the diesel is eating away the locals fuel systems in Mansfield, Omeo etc........
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby olcoolone on Mon, 25 Aug 2008 2:43 +0000

Brett we aren't talking Alpine fuel additives, we are talking about diesel conditioners and cleaners.....stuff you put in you fuel tank to get rid of carbon deposits, the additives and conditioners that's suppose to make your fuel injection system work better and keep it clean.

Unfortunately some people are using these potent additives and conditioners on every tank fill up, this is what may kill CRD systems, the stuff that contain very strong degreasing and carbon removing agents.

If I went to the snow I would be using Alpine fuel or an Alpine fuel additive.

Alpine fuel additive is a fuel modifier making diesel stay liquid in cold climates only and is probably not much different to the Alpine fuel from the big guys and it has no cleaning properties.




Brett, further to your previous questions....

QUOTE....."You can bet Toyota don't and haven't done any R&D on 'additives' how could they where would they start - check additive brand A and then move all the way to brand X ???? I don't think so.

They don't know what your adding to the fuel in the way of the additive so how could they sanction it, some guys might want to add some liquid nitro additive for added performance and economy, another might want something to clean the injectors while I might want to use an additive it to prevent the diesel turning to weird when I park my truck in the snow for 2 weeks."


No! Toyota have not tested every fuel additive or conditioner but fuel sold commercially is produced to a standard and the fuel company's then selves do rigorous testing to make sure the fuel complies and is compatible to vehicles that are going to use it.

Toyota and Denso would test there components to make sure they function correctly with diesel that is made to the standards.

If they did analyse the fail component and found it to of failed due to something outside there control they will knock back the claim.

If a component goes back under warranty due to failure they can tell exactly what that component has been subjected to, metallurgy is a very exacting science and they can also use chromatography and mass spectrometry technology if needed.

Like anything in life everything leaves a trace.

They want to find what made it fail.
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Re: Toyota Diesel Fuel Additive.

Postby Brett B on Mon, 25 Aug 2008 7:53 +0000

Argh I see, I was thinking by reading some of the above that all 'additives' were harmful to to my beloved D4D, it was a little open and easily misinterpreted, not all additives are harmful after all. 8-) :D

I must admit I would be feeling uncomfortable running additives that contain specific strong degreasing/cleaning properties.
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