Injector / Seals / Smoke / Blocked Oil Pickup

[Talktheroo]

It is running a bit better, the cold knock seemed less. I wont really know until the morning when i start it up in the driveway.

I have been considering writing to fair trading and Toyota about all of this, considering the evidence of the recalls overseas and what not and now my experience of taking it to Toyota twice and them telling me there was no problem and having no idea of a seat seal fault, i mean i even left it with them over night and they couldnt produce the smokey startup whereas Sydney Diesel said they started it in the morning and the workshop filled up.

Have guys like you Roo, Steven, Boxhead and BDG who seem to have a bit of knowledge on this tried to take it any further ?

Do you think its worth trying or would it be a waist of time ?

I personally think that if a sub-standard copper washer was used and identified to be a manufacturing fault then Toyota should be liable for any rectification

Some important points you make there, Nicko.
To cut a long story short, so to speak, the courts look at the seats as being a manufacturing fault that should have been recalled. This is with cases that I have been involved in.
As soon as the magistrate sees the procedure laid out, as in the GISC procedure for the valve clearances, it's pretty well open and shut. The audible check is unacceptable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHqcv61bM4
If the audible checks were done at the 40,000 and 80,000km services, under warranty, the original seats are still in there.
Like I said, unacceptable, in practice and from a legal perspective.
The Roo.

[sambarhound]

First time poster.

Been trawling the net over the xmas period re this problem. My 07 lux is in getting a heart transplant atm.Yesterday I personally cleaned the inlet manifold and erg and it looked exactly like the pic on here. No.1 piston grabbed and total rebuild. Had the "death rattle" from 150 000km when i bought it second hand. The previous owner informed me it was noisy when cold but had had toyota check it out and all injectors were within tolerances. (I had been living o/s for four years and had no idea re tojo d4d death rattle and implications)I bought the ute when it was warm(weather) but as soon as the weather started getting colder , the noise increased in the mornings on start up and until normal operating temp was reached. I was concerned as it seemed too loud. I took it to 3 different mechanics over the next service intervals to have ute overnight, service it and inspect/listen to cold start. One of these was a tojo dealer who put it on computer and the report read (had explained to me) that all injectors were within tolerances.

I am a carpenter by trade(25+ years) and understand you get what you pay for. If I f$@#&% up , either I don't get paid, I fix it or someone else fixes it and it comes out of my pocket. The most frustrating part is that I bought a "supposedly" good product with 150kms and serviced it more regularly than the book,(oils n filters) and took it to people who should know and as far as I am concerned, I am paying for someone else's f$@#&% up. Namely Toyota.

The Hilux has been a top selling ute in Aus. How many thousands are on the road I don't know. If there is a problem with a pissant injector seal that cost sfa to replace and saves private owners $12000+ on complete engine rebuilds, wouldn't it be the smart thing to do to give mechanics a heads up from an official somewhere at the top of toyota?

At this point in time I am so confused at so much part/mis/bad/uninformed/thinkso/sorta/maybe/couldbe/try this/ information regarding this issue I don't know if I am arthur or marthur. At some point in time the buck has to stop at the top. Stop the bullshit, take responsibility for problem and stop letting someone else pay for it.

Appologies to all who read this. Aimed at the wrong people I know. Just sharing some frustration with a few more people like me who I am sure are out there.

[Talktheroo]

Don't worry Sam, you are not alone.
Unfortunately, at the moment, in Australia, it's still a small claim action, in states that have this court.
Small claims was set up by the Howard government, the only good thing that government did, in my opinion.
It was put in place so the normal Australian could have a fair say about issues like this, without to much problems.
Now state governments, at least the Newman government in QLD, is now trying to make it complicated.
Just trying to understand the fees is involved now, well you need to have an LLB degree to understand it.
It's treacherous behaviour, I think. They think we are all stupid, the political class.
I went to my local state member, and he could not understand it, so there you go.
The BS, well, until we get rid of all the bad politicians, this country will go nowhere, and that's a fact of life, now.
It's all part of the merry go round.
Just remember Sam, there has been consumer law broken, and it's worth the fight. It's your right to do this, in this country.
The Roo.

[BDG]

Had another just before christmas - not even our injectors, old mate just wanted some help after Toyota had bent him over. Took the car to his local Toyota bloke, got them to supply and fit injectors. Got it back, all was sweet for about 15k, and then the car took off (accelerated with no accelerator input!) knocked its backside off and blew shit loads of smoke. owner feared the worse and the story from Toyota was that "the old injectors must have damaged the pistons and these new injectors basically finished them off. Sorry mate, 5 figure invoice to fix.

Those who know, if you leave the leak off rail loose accidently, it will fill the engine oil up with diesel, and basically overfill it until there is about a 50/50 ratio of fuel and oil spilling into the engine inlet via the breather. At this point, the car now has a additional fuel source with no timing control (which gives the knocking) and blows massive amounts of smoke. Anyway, Toyota was adamant that it was cracked pistons, and took the head off and like a magic trick, they were fine.

re-fitted the head and there was no problem (after an oil change and Cat replacement)...

Moral of the story, if you guys can find a trusted mechanic (whether that be at Toyota or not) stick to them like shit to a blanket - they are increasingly hard to find. And the problem with the DUMB ones, is that they're happy to give you an invoice that can potential financially ruin you for their incompetence / lack of knowledge and / or care.

*** Late night rant over***

If you guys remember my little rant, this bloke from the above story phoned again today, turns out that after bolting the head back on, they thought that obviously the noise was from Over Fueling and sent the pump and rail to an 'injection specialist' in Melbourne for appraisal. Like most of the rest of our industry, 'oh thats shagged mate' came out, so Toyota decided that they would spend $4250 odd on replacing these units despite the ECU having never lodged a fuel pressure related fault. A bit shit when SOME Toyota dealers are willing to spend thousands of dollars of the customers money just so they can seem they were right.

Anyway, old mate from the story is having none of it, and good on him > actually the smart bloke recorded every single conversation!

[Timbo1980]

Can I just ask a general question about this whole issue to the experts in this area...? There seems to be a lot of confusing info going around regarding these injector seals and whether newer Hiluxes and/or Prados still have the old style seals or whether these have been replaced with the newer version. And even if they have been upgraded on newer (post 2008?) models, whether the change has been sufficient to fully address the problem.

So could anybody comment here once and for all on whether there is any evidence that this issue has been addressed on more recent models of this engine? Have there been any reported issues of dodgy seals on post 2008 models that anybody knows of? Or is it too early to tell whether these are still a problem or not?

I've seen at least one worrying report of somebody with a later model hilux that said when they inspected their injectors they noticed the seals were still the old copper type. I'm not sure whether this is true or not but it would be nice to know if they have actually upgraded the seals or not.

I have a 2013 diesel with only 6,000kms on it. So for now I am obviously not that concerned! But I would like to know if I should be expecting this to be an issue at some stage, and to keep an eye/ear out for the symptoms or if I don't need to worry...

Thanks fellas...

[mattwhite]

Personally Tim I'd do them with a tappet check every 40 and I think that's the general opinion.

So old mate still not got the hilux back Matt? Does the dealer not realise if the pressure is right the pump has done it's job, not hard to check. And how does a rail create engine knock? Short of being blocked with crud.

[BDG]

It was never the issue. they left the leak off lines loose, oil+fuel was going in the engine via the crankcase breather giving them every symptom. Toyota was adamant it was a engine failure, then spent something like 10 hours removing the head to find it was perfect. So (my theory is) that in order to try and recoup some costs, they decided to replace these items.
Your assumption that if you have correct and stable pressure the supply side (rail and pump) has done its job... And fuel pressure is TOYOTAs number 1 saftey risk, so there are about 6 different sensor / fault codes that it can throw. NOT ONE was registered.
Just plane slack.

TIMBO, with the introduction of the DLC injector Circa late 08, these seals were replaced. Your fine mate.

[Timbo1980]

That's comforting to hear BDG, thanks!

[Talktheroo]

Ye Timbo, to do with the question in general. Your vehicle will have the new designed and coated seats (sheets, Toyota talk) installed in your vehicle. Part number 11176-30011.
This is supposed to fix the problem. Yes, TMC now coat their seats.
Note, the best injector seats to have in your vehicle, in my opinion, are the Bailey's Group ones. They stick and seal like, well, you know what I mean. You have to actually pry them off from the nozzle, to remove them. The Toyota ones, pretty well, can be removed by hand, most of the time. Big difference.
The Roo.

[StevenS]

Ye Timbo, to do with the question in general. Your vehicle will have the new designed and coated seats (sheets, Toyota talk) installed in your vehicle. Part number 11176-30011.
This is supposed to fix the problem. Yes, TMC now coat their seats.
Note, the best injector seats to have in your vehicle, in my opinion, are the Bailey's Group ones. They stick and seal like, well, you know what I mean. You have to actually pry them off from the nozzle, to remove them. The Toyota ones, pretty well, can be removed by hand, most of the time. Big difference.
The Roo.

+1 to that, had removed my BDG injectors only 3-4 weeks after fitting them to do some other work on the engine and found them to be almost welded to the injector!

[BDG]

And that's how we get shit done! LOL

[Talktheroo]

And that's how we get shit done! LOL

Yes, funny.
The Roo.

[SquatDeadBench]

Just thought I'd share my story in the hope of helping someone else as I have been helped greatly by many on here and wish to provide hope and/or assistance to others.

Back in June last year I parked my 05 SR5 nose down whilst up Newcastle way and got the dreaded blue grey mushroom cloud on start up. Having no knowledge of this issue at that point in time, and unable to recreate the scenario after many attempts, I thought it was a 'one off' and kept an eye on things. All seemed well for a few months. Then I put the beast in for her 150k service at a VERY credible diesel/4x4 workshop here in Canberra. This was the first time in its life being serviced outside of a Toyota workshop (slap me now for I have sinned!). It was also the first time the fuel filter had been ripped out. Needless to say, the filter was chockers with junk. A new one was fitted and I was told that a fuel cell flush could be on the cards very soon.

Fast forward to December 2013 and I'm transiting up and down the east coast. I always get Caltex Vortex but on one particular occasion, I had to fuel up at a dodgy servo in the middle of nowhere. Low and behold, my mushroom cloud reappears the next day after having a healthy holiday. This time on a few occasions and again, when parked nose down. I then started searching on this forum and prado point and on others and uncovered an underground world of significant injector issues. I have read this forum and many others, back to front many times. I also emailed BDG. They called me on the 03 Jan 14! What customer service! What knowledge these people have and only too happy to share it with you, provide excellent advice and unparalleled prices.

Well, as I write this now, my Lux has been at a diesel injection specialist for the last 3 weeks. An initial scan on the injectors detected nothing (in fact they said their tolerances were excellent) and I was told to pick up my car cause all was well. I told them I was adamant an issue existed. They listened to me, parked it nose down overnight and they were able to get the mushroom cloud happening. After stripping the injectors out, as I expected, #1 injector seal had been compromised!!!

I was originally going to run with Baileys however, I thought I'd give the contaminated fuel insurance claim a go after hearing of others who had successfully pursued a claim. After three weeks of waiting and dealing with assessors, I've had a WIN! Complete engine flush including fuel cell, new suction control valve, 4 brand spanking new injectors, a new fuel rail, a new filter and coding and labour all done!!! About $4500 worth of fuel system which is costing me only a $650 excess. The only downside is the insurance company won't use remanufactured injectors so apologies Matt and BDG (but thank you greatly for your time).

Why have I written this? Well I had no idea that I could go down the contaminated fuel insurance claim path. I'm not saying this avenue will work out for everyone, but for some it's definitely worth a go. Needless to say, I'm also getting an in cabin alarm rigged water trap installed as additional insurance. Thanks to all who have posted here. Sorry to admins for writing a novel.

[StevenS]

Bloody good result! Although re: remanufactured injectors - apparently even the Denso ones you get now might be reco injectors. Put that to the insurance company as you'll have a far better product with the Bailey's injectors

[Skog07]

Squat. Did the oil pickup screen get checked and come up all clear? Good to hear you had a good result. Now that I'm back on my feet and put a few tanks through the lux I thoroughly recommend cleaning out your MAP filter and MAF sensor. Much more responsive and my fuel economy has improved somewhat and I'm not blowing bucket loads of black smoke anymore.

[SquatDeadBench]

Hey lads. The oil pick up screen is being checked when they finalize everything today and conduct an oil change too. The MAP filter and MAF sensor are both first on my list as soon as I have it back. I've also read how important they are Skog and how much you and others encourage others to do it. Tks for the info about the reman injectors but the new ones are already ordered and I can't change anything now.

[Talktheroo]

It's important to note SDB, that the blow by situation is not caused by contaminated fuel. It is caused by the injector seats failing.
If it was an insurance company that paid out on this, you are very lucky.
Toyota Extra Care should fix this problem for nothing. Especially if the seats haven't been changed out at the 80,000km service.
The Roo.

[BDG]

Also guys,
Its noting that we can sell new injectors. We normally buy 50 new injectors every month. Its a little shame that we were not able to assist here, but for future reference, we're happy to help.

Regards
Matt

[SquatDeadBench]

Sorry Matt, wasn't aware of that. Thanks again to you and your staff for your assistance.

[Steve9R]

Also guys,
Its noting that we can sell new injectors. We normally buy 50 new injectors every month. Its a little shame that we were not able to assist here, but for future reference, we're happy to help.

Regards
Matt

Really ? I thought Denso weren't talking to you anymore ?

Steve