Lost 42 horses: Wrong injector? Clogged? 2KD-FVT

[xychix]

Hi I've got a 2015 hilux, 200k km's on the clock, injector change at 155km.

Around that same time I changed something in the tyres, but felt slow since then. Blamed the tyre size.
Now I've gotten it on a dyno bank.

102hp at peak, 269Nm torque curve is looking ok.
expected 144hp and 343Nm...

Did also test without the MAF sensor fitted, same results.
Big question is what to do next:
- check exactly the type of injectors fitted, are there even different injectors for this engine at 100hp (no intercooler and no variable turbo I believe?)
- open up the full inlet system for a clean? (1 valve spotted with an inspection 40k km's ago didn't look that bad at first glance)

[xychix]

just figured that in the Netherlands the Hiace runs the same engine. (not sure if the injectors are different???)

But they come with the following specs 102Hp and 260Nm torque...... thats a near match!!!!
What would happen if one would place wrong injectors (that give a little less) and go trough the pilot learning? I bet it would adjust timing and run just fine?

it seems Dense DCRI200280 is valid for a hilux with 102 and 144hp, so apearanty the injectors are the same and the volume is purely managed by fuel pressure and not how big the hole is.... ?

[xychix]

A friend was on the same dyno and got 136hp. The search goes on for the lost horses.

To bad it seems quiet here, did everyone move to facebook?

[Rob_Wood]

It has been kinda quiet in here the last week or so. Dunno where everyone is?
Your query is way outside my wheel house, but I have been wondering ... Is the Dyno you're using capable of taking readings elsewhere in the drive train? maybe off the back of the gear box or the tail shaft? I only ask because increasing the rolling diameter of the wheels & tyres will reduce traction, but will also increase output vehicle speed for a given engine RPM. I'm not sure how this will affect the HP at the wheels, but it seems to me that for an increase in one area there is likely to be losses in other areas. Is it possible that the different wheel / tyre size is having an affect on what you're trying to achieve?

[Gipsy]

No Rob rwhp is measured differently, long difficult job to measure at the gearbox and engine out to measure at the flywheel.
Some dyno readings are taken at the hub, bolts onto the wheel studs, while the older type have a rolling chassis dyno. Wheel size makes no difference to horsepower, just changes how it gets to the road.
And yes it is quiet here, maybe because I shut up

[xychix]

It has been kinda quiet in here the last week or so. Dunno where everyone is?
Your query is way outside my wheel house, but I have been wondering ... Is the Dyno you're using capable of taking readings elsewhere in the drive train? maybe off the back of the gear box or the tail shaft? I only ask because increasing the rolling diameter of the wheels & tyres will reduce traction, but will also increase output vehicle speed for a given engine RPM. I'm not sure how this will affect the HP at the wheels, but it seems to me that for an increase in one area there is likely to be losses in other areas. Is it possible that the different wheel / tyre size is having an affect on what you're trying to achieve?

it is engine horsepower, don't exacly how that is compensated for but i believe it something like a full run en then let it run out (or back to a certain rpm to mesure the negative horsepower (which in effect is the drive train drag).

My mate got a chart with WheelHorsePower and EngineHorsePower.
And then again. he did get up to 136hp compared to my 102hp... so there is a 34hp difference on practically the same car.

[dave g]

You said it all been cleaned have you checked for a air leak same where when it was put back together.

[Gipsy]

I know it's splitting hairs but horsepower is a calculated figure based on actual torque at the dyno which is adjusted and compensated for drivetrain losses but rear wheel horsepower is what you see on the printout. If you want REAL engine horsepower it is still a calculated figure and derived directly at the engine flywheel. It uses what is called a 'brake dynamometer' and from this we get 'brake horsepower', still a calculated figure based on torque measured at the flywheel.
If you look at the chart from xychix you will notice the term 'CHp' and 'Ctorque' indicating 'Calculated'.
For more information check this page:

https://brakeexperts.com/what-is-a-brake-dynamometer/

And: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

So from this you can see there are many different ways to measure horsepower but we car users rely on the bhp figure. The dyno operator can also vary the results depending on how good they are at interpretation of the data. In short, the important thing to know is torque because that's where it begins and ends.

When I was a lad I was involved in rebuilding and testing Rolls-Royce Merlin engines and on the brake dyno they produced around 1800 brake horsepower, but for an aircraft engineer i was interested in how much torque could be produced to drive a propeller. A 'Racing Merlin' engine produces 2160hp!

For those interested, here are some startling facts about Rolls-Royce Merlin engines:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

[xychix]

I know it's splitting hairs but horsepower is a calculated figure based on actual torque at the dyno which is adjusted and compensated for drivetrain losses but rear wheel horsepower is what you see on the printout. If you want REAL engine horsepower it is still a calculated figure and derived directly at the engine flywheel. It uses what is called a 'brake dynamometer' and from this we get 'brake horsepower', still a calculated figure based on torque measured at the flywheel.
If you look at the chart from xychix you will notice the term 'CHp' and 'Ctorque' indicating 'Calculated'.
For more information check this page:

https://brakeexperts.com/what-is-a-brake-dynamometer/

And: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

So from this you can see there are many different ways to measure horsepower but we car users rely on the bhp figure. The dyno operator can also vary the results depending on how good they are at interpretation of the data. In short, the important thing to know is torque because that's where it begins and ends.

When I was a lad I was involved in rebuilding and testing Rolls-Royce Merlin engines and on the brake dyno they produced around 1800 brake horsepower, but for an aircraft engineer i was interested in how much torque could be produced to drive a propeller. A 'Racing Merlin' engine produces 2160hp!

For those interested, here are some startling facts about Rolls-Royce Merlin engines:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

always a good read however i just want roughly the same output as my mate with same car

[Gipsy]

I hear you xychix, I guess you are on the right track... It's just a matter of ECU tuning. I guess all those hi-ace owners will be rushing to a tuner to get those extra ponies

Back in the old days I raced boats and the outboard manufacturers changed horsepower figure by fitting a restriction plate to the induction manifold, thus a 150hp Mercury engine is just a 115hp with the plate removed so $5k for a 115hp and over $7k for a 150hp (just by removing a $2 plate).

Amazing the tricks played on the unsuspecting owners by manufacturers

[xychix]

found the culprit after 7 long weekends of working.

- did intake clean
- did reseating valves in head as they had slight leaks
- did complete turbo disassembly

all seemed god by the look and feel. Still drives like sht.
Took the turbo again to test stepper motor, fine. Then started measuring the turbo posustion sensor...... that was all over the place, and even more broken when heated to 50 celcius.

At first didn't seem to be a separate part, until we found out it's actually a corolla / avensis / auris throttle valve position sensor.

Ordered one and already 1000+ km's back on the road. Full MAP pressure as by the book.

[xychix]

but still only 104hp......

Throttle body (the valve in the intake) is last suspect other than to small nozzle injectors.

[Chopps]

No codes?

[xychix]

No codes?

nope nothing.

The deeper i dig the more I can remove from the suspect lists, summary so far:


I have a 2015 hilux 2KD-FTV (KUN25L-PRMSHW), 144hp (intercooler, electric steered VNT turbo, EGR cooler etc).

However we cannot find why it only makes 102-104 hp, if we throw in a 180hp tune it gets to ~150hp...., now back at original 144hp maps and doing 102hp again.
No error codes
Yes a 102hp version exists. However this is always with a vacuum controlled turbo as far as I can tell, also this one has another ECU.
Virtual read of ECU shows: SW: 89663-0KR72- / Spare: 89661-0KW60 / SW upg.: 30KR7200 (Confirming it should do 144hp)

Work done:
- lifted head, and redid / cleaned the complete engine top, redid valve clearance etc.
- intake clean, replaces throttle valve in the intake, clean EGR
- turbo full check, replaced exhaust, labda sensor
- injectors are bench tested, they produce 45mm2/H (and the tester said that to be perfect in specs for this injector DENSO DCRI200280)

Some numbers on sensors:
MAP (full throttle, 224 kpa, perfect and up there directly) (perfect on spec)
MAF up to 180gr/second at 3000+ RPM and pedal to the floor (should be OK)
EGT1, cruising ~300/320 celcius (seems ok..)
Throttle input in ECU goes up to 100% (te pedal works)
Voltage from ECU to sensors is on spec (believe ~4.5v)
fuel pressure nice and constant. ~45k kPa idle and up to 180k kPa on max throttle and higher RPM.
Injector values well within spec, bench tested (still baffles me)
Switched injector driver with other car to rule that out, no difference.

My feeling is that somehow it doesn't get enough fuel OR is working against itself. But in a way that is not throwing any codes....

My questions:
1. Has anyone ever seen anything like this?
2. Does anyone have numbers that can backup the volume produced by the injectors?
3. Has anyone ever dealt with damaged loom / broke Injector driver? (and is that a match with my complaints?)


Next actions:
- Scope on injector signal to see of that is ok
- Still don't trust the revised injectors that went in, could just replace those. But if that is not the issue a lot of money out of the window....

[Gipsy]

Xychix wrote:
injectors are bench tested, they produce 45mm2/H (and the tester said that to be perfect in specs for this injector DENSO DCRI200280)

Are these the correct injectors for this engine? I note you say they tested in spec for 'this injector' but is this the correct injector? I can't see any other issues in your full description of what you have tested. Suggest checking if these are the correct injectors for this engine.

"102hp version exists. However this is always with a vacuum controlled turbo as far as I can tell, also this one has another ECU." Are you sure this one didn't escape quality control or is a 'special order', say for a fleet order from new and the ECU is incorrect? These things do happen. (Not normally with Toyota) It seems oddly coincidental that your Hilux has 102hp right on spec with the detuned one.

I think you said you bought the Hilux second hand... Have you checked its history....maybe engine ECU etc has been changed sometime in the past??

Might be worth checking at a Toyota dealer your Vin number and build data as well as part numbers for injectors and ECU etc. If you give them the Vin number they can provide the correct part numbers for all the bits including the engine.