"ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

"ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 5:11 +0000

Hi Guys,

I know max's thread on ESC mentioned this point, but I think it's good to have clear thread on what's happening at the moment as it will eventually effect alot of us. This may be a little bit of a rant, but I had an interesting conversation today with a local engineer and the RTA regarding modifying the MN Triton. Now I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with this but the MN has ESC and in Australia, there are special rules regarding the modification of all vehicles with ESC. Si this will eventually include the hilux. As the laws read atm, you cannot modify the suspension or tyres on a vehicle fitted with ESC. In fact this law basically prohibits you from even changing the brand of tyre without an engineer’s certificate. Everything has to be exactly to the manufacturers specifications. Ridiculous I know, but it really highlights how difficult manufactures and Government authorities are making it for aftermarket companies and enthusiast alike.
So where does this leave us? Well basically until the laws are changed, you cannot even fit a 50mm lift to your vehicle (fitted with ESC) without getting it engineered. But wait, it gets even better. If you have already fitted a kit, or don’t get a new kit engineered, you leave yourself open for a lawsuit in the event of an accident. As your vehicle won’t be ‘legally’ modified due to the ESC regulations. Insurance may become void, and you might find yourself having to prove that the modifications were not the cause of the accident. A near impossible task, and a pointless one at that. I think nearly everybody knows that OE components are manufactured to a compromise due to cost, and that basically any aftermarket suspension is an improvement in safety, handling and performance compared to the original. Even with tyres, no way will the OE brand compete with aftermarket 4WD tyres designed for the hard driving we love.
My only hope is that the AAAA (Australia Automotive Aftermarket Association) is successful in fighting these laws and they are changed sooner rather than later.
Last edited by Skog07 on Sat, 24 Apr 2010 5:28 +0000, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Moved to Annoucements. 24th April, 2010.Skog
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby broke on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 5:48 +0000

2 questions then mate,

I guess this will make it hard for aftermarket companies to hang around- would they be in the fight to have this reviewed?

&

will this mean that our pre ESC trucks may maintain their value a bit better since they will be more capable off road?

Thought I might ask you since your in the aftermarket game.

Cheers,

Daniel
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 6:12 +0000

Yeah mate I believe the early models will hold their value if the legislation remains. They will most probably even increase which is good for us. I know the AAAA is contesting the laws and I believe they have all the evidence showing that aftermarket suspension and tyres improves the vehicle and does not interfere with ESC. We will probably also see a mass movement opposed to the laws just like we saw with the VSI 50. Everybody joined together and squashed it. So fingers crossed.
As for the aftermarket side, at the moment there isn’t really a problem as not many people know about the laws and are working at without a care. Eventually though it will become hard for some companies. I would think especially for small tyre shops as the majority of vehicles with ESC are passenger cars. It’s just lucky for us that most of our business is based around export to countries that don’t have ridiculous laws like this.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby camwill69 on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 6:45 +0000

I think the other organisations like the HMAA, small communities and other tourist based organisatoins will have a bit to say about this too. Imagine some of the places that rely on these modified vehicles just to get to them.

Ie Fink, Cameron Corner, Birdsville and so on. As Roads get better the issue for these communities will reduce but these vehicle enhancements/additions are coming around faster than better roads are.

m2cw

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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby djs0276 on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 7:03 +0000

Another example of how over governed and over regulated we are. As Alan Jones of Sydney radio often says to the government, "Get out of our lives!!"
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Hilux Max on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 8:24 +0000

Thanks for bringing this up Brendan....Im pretty sure I mentioned elsewhere that the current generation hilux will be the last one that you will be able to modify suspension and tyres on...anything else from this point on will have ESC.....as good as it is a safety device, and you would love it on the vehicle your misses drives with the kids in it, like Brendan said, for enthusiasts like us its another nail in the coffin, and one of the reasons Ill be hanging on to this hilux for a very long time.....
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Skog07 on Sat, 16 Jan 2010 9:09 +0000

Thanks for bring this to our attention Brendan.
ultimate wrote:I know the AAAA is contesting the laws and I believe they have all the evidence showing that aftermarket suspension and tyres improves the vehicle and does not interfere with ESC. We will probably also see a mass movement opposed to the laws just like we saw with the VSI 50. Everybody joined together and squashed it. So fingers crossed.

The VSI50 thread is about due to be pulled down from global annoucements was thinking this would be a good thread to put up in its place. All updates and comments can be put on this thread. I know your on the coal face with this down at Ultimate Suspension and any updates for the members would be greatly appreciated. Seems as though we oppose one set of silly laws and they then hit us with another set... :roll: :roll:
Thanks.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby rodw on Sun, 17 Jan 2010 9:18 +0000

Brendan, Good on you for posting about this. It needs to come to the attention of the public. Even on pasenger cars, who replaces tyres with factory ones? It is well known that the factory ones are a lesser tyre than the same commercially available from the same manufacturer. What about taxis and the like wo fit hard wearing tyres?

It is not just the 4WD community who will be affected.....
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby wholehog on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 12:54 +0000

Any updates on this legislation change yet.Of particular interest to me as im a bee's dick form purchasing a new lux?
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 3:16 +0000

We're a member of the 4WD industry council and have been working with the AAAA to fight all of the regulations. So far the results have been good and it is looking like we will be allowed 50mm suspension with out engineer's certificate. Nothing is official yet but the RTA is at least starting to listen. I'm also confident the ESC regs will be dropped but that fight will probably be a little bit drawn out. I'll update the forum officially once everything is finalised and we know exactly what is going to happen.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Oz Bruiser on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 3:36 +0000

Hey Thanks for this info. is part of the reason i chose the current model Hilux as oppossed to the update version. Eevn if the laws dont happen i imagine with all the electronic gadgetry going into the new hilux it will be more compilcated to modify and improve.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby patl on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 3:41 +0000

I was going to change my hilux over in November this year but will go to Cape York early next year, I am going to keep my 2007 model and put some more stuff on than possibly get the new model and not be able to do anything legally.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Big Red Truck on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 8:31 +0000

patl wrote:I was going to change my hilux over in November this year but will go to Cape York early next year, I am going to keep my 2007 model and put some more stuff on than possibly get the new model and not be able to do anything legally.


Could be a good idea, as I was at my local Toyota dealer and 100 % confirmed that the new SR5's at the end of this month are coming with 17 inch wheels, VSC Vehicle Stability Control, TRC Traction Control and Brake Assist on the ABS Brake system.
On a positive note he 'believed' brakes may disc brake rear, but can't confirm that bit.

Cheers, Mat
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Oz Bruiser on Tue, 07 Sep 2010 8:37 +0000

Also as i mentioned else where, the new model is whole sale available to dealers officcially on the 7th or 8th of Oct. (forget which day i was told) They have also alledegedly had the LSD removed because as Toyota put it the Electronics do it better than the current LSD.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby monsma on Tue, 01 Feb 2011 1:34 +0000

Has there been any changes as yet. I needed to get a new hilux for work so i have ended up with 2011 SR5. I am not happy that i am unable to lift or even put off road tyres on it
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Tue, 01 Feb 2011 2:53 +0000

I should be able to provide an update on this over the next couple of weeks. There are a few meetings happening this week in particular which could be interesting. This whole thing is still up in the air and the Government is looking at making radical changes to the engineering scheme and current regulations.

At the moment the Government is saying we need to engineer vehicle's with ESC but the engineer's are saying they can't do it because nobody can confirm what needs to be engineered. Because the ESC programs can influence so many systems, the engineer's aren't willing to pass off on anything until either the manufacturers or the Government can identify why lifting a vehicle has an effect on ESC and how the effect can be tested.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby Oz Bruiser on Tue, 01 Feb 2011 3:15 +0000

ultimate wrote:I should be able to provide an update on this over the next couple of weeks. There are a few meetings happening this week in particular which could be interesting. This whole thing is still up in the air and the Government is looking at making radical changes to the engineering scheme and current regulations.

At the moment the Government is saying we need to engineer vehicle's with ESC but the engineer's are saying they can't do it because nobody can confirm what needs to be engineered. Because the ESC programs can influence so many systems, the engineer's aren't willing to pass off on anything until either the manufacturers or the Government can identify why lifting a vehicle has an effect on ESC and how the effect can be tested.



Hey Brendan although it dosnt effect me has your company sucsessfully engineered any Hilux's or dare i say Tritons up to this point with ESC / traction control systems? if they have and the laws change whats it mean to the ones already passed if they have been. If they havent been passed yet and the laws dont allow them to be engineered what happens to the guys and gals who have put cash on the table at yours or other buiusness in general if they cant be engineered.

Just curiuos as although i got the end of the series 2010 model and its been engineered for the mods ok etc, as i have on my insurance policy New for old for i think the first couple of years at least if anything was to happen to my lux, (Knock on wood it dosnt) would it be able to be put as mine is now if it was replaced with a a new model?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ben.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Wed, 02 Feb 2011 4:47 +0000

Once a vehicle is engineered, that report will stay current unless it wasn't done properly. The new engineering scheme the government is trying to bring in will actually make it cheaper and easier to get engineering work done. I can tell you a lot of the engineer's at the moment aren't happy as most of them will have to re-apply for the licenses if the changes come in.
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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby mrpatchman on Sat, 05 Feb 2011 7:44 +0000

Guys, Im also a Mech Engineer and a devout petrol head... Im currently awaiting a listing on the NSW RTA Vehicle Signatories list. Im all for smart, well engineered modifications to vehicle but am aware that there are many cowboys that will make their vehicles unsafe. Some of these people make unsafe modifications with knowledge and others do it unwittingly.
End game is that my wife and children are out sharing the roads with all of these vehicles... If these vehicles are unsafe and end up in a fatal accident with my family, the argument is then mute (is it not?).
The new Vehicle Safety Certification Compliance Scheme (VSCCS) is bringing new NSW Legislation with it... It is true that ADRs will get tighter as time progresses, but older vehicles that are compliant (with a plate) with earlier ADRs need only continue compliance with them. Newer vehicles will undergo ever stricter rulings.
I dont for a second think that all these new rules are practical, reasonable and/or logical in all regards... Vehicles such as the 200 series and the new Triton are examples where we (as enthusiasts) are going to lose out as mods become harder to get through.

Anyways... crossing fingers. Im hoping that I may be able to be a bit of a sounding board for these forums in the future.

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Re: "ESC" the end of aftermarket suspension and tyres

Postby ultimate on Sat, 05 Feb 2011 7:51 +0000

It's good to have another Mechanical engineer on the forum. I'm sure you we will all learn a fair bit from you. We definately need some of the laws tighten, just hopefully it doesn't go too far. Are you currently an approved signatory or work in a different field of engineering?
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