Maximum LEGAL SR tyre and wheel sizes NSW

[johnsmith]

I know this topic has been flogged to death. I have spent upwards of 20hrs now searching for the answers using the search function and I am only slightly closer to having any clue about this issue. I really hope that this thread becomes the definitive thread on the subject, and that is helps others in the same predicament.

I definitely do not consider myself to be a law abiding citizen. However, I do consider myself to be unlucky enough to get done over by an insurance company should I ever have an at fault accident ( none yet touch wood). It has been stated before that there are 4X4 friendly insurers and that most insurers have no clue about all this stuff or that "if you were to be denied a claim based on a small increase in tyre size you would be the first one", but this does not make any difference whatsoever. I am untrusting enough of insurers (and of corporations in general) to believe that if there are ANY loopholes they will take them. I have also heard it said that anything is fine so long as the insurer doesn't deem the modification to be the cause of or related to the cause of the accident (of course the onus would be on you to prove it wasn't the cause, and this could become a near impossible task altogether).

I am in NSW and am only interested in NSW laws. As far as I can tell there has been a lot of discussion over the last few months about all this new VSI50 stuff. The only resolution I can see that has been made is that some "body" somewhere has decided that it needs more thought and they're going to sit down with some wiser people than them and try to work out something that is fair and safe for all motorists. However, this is not the issue and likely a long way off.

Currently, unless you have an engineer's certificate (that some of us may not wish to pay for [how much are they BTW?]), there are a set of laws that have been in place since 2003 that pertain to what exact modifications a person can make to their tyre and wheel size without notifying the RTA.

The document I refer to is found here. http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sourc ... Q4CfTRLcng

OR here http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... 9_rev4.pdf

According to my research (which in all liklihood is wrong) the document to which one must refer to for manufacturer's allowable sizes is the tyre placard located usually on the door pillar /sill and not the car manual or on an internet forum somewhere. There is information around on the forums that suggests that one can include a TRD sticker on their sill with it's larger specs and this should allow some more flexibility in what is legal. This was suggested because one source stated that wheel/tyre size could be based on the largest size of that production model. However, I have found no legal documents that state this to be the case (but I would love to, because this really does open up a lot more options).

To sum it up, In NSW there must not be increases further than the following:

25mm greater in wheel track - defined as the distance between the centreline of the rims.

26mm greater in wheel width.

15mm over the outside diameter of the largest wheel and tyre combination specified by the vehicle.

The wheels must be contained within the bodywork of the vehicle including flares.

The wheel musn't foul any part of the body or suspension in all operating conditions (WTF does that mean?)

The tyres must fit the wheels.

The tyre load rating must equal or better the manufacturer's specification.

It is suggested that the tyre's speed rating equal or better the manufacturer's specification. However, it is stated in the VSI 9 document that you may fit tyres with a speed rating lower than specified so long as the speed rating is above N - 140km/hr.

Okay, that is the law (or rather the guidlines setout by the body which deems your car to be roadworthy or not).


With this information in mind, and the following, can someone please throw suggestions at me for which tyres and rim combinations will be legal.

Most of my driving is city (I live on the Mid North Coast so perhaps it's not city but town rather). However, I often drive (that is probably around 100km per fortnight) on unsurfaced roads, unused fire trails, potholed roads, corrugated roads and various other terrains. I would like the ability to drive more off road and would also like to do some touring type distances (maybe including desert stuff) around the country in the coming years. I am an active caver, canyoner, hiker etc. and travel distance regularly to get to places to do these activities.

I am also somewhat tight on fuel economy and whilst I'm surely not going to miss the extra $500 per year it may cost to fill the ute by having a larger tyre size, I don't wish to be paying for extra fuel if it's unnecessary for the types of driving I do.

Perhaps a good place to start would be the wheels.

Given that wheel track cannot be increased more than 25mm and tyre width no more than 26mm, what width and offset is going to keep me legal? I like the look of wider tyres and as I said in the title I am looking for maximum legal.

Which suitable tyres are going to fit these rims? Should I go for LT AT?

[Skog07]

Im gobsmacked Johnsmith...
What an awesome thread.. You have pretty much summed it up on most fronts for NSW..
We have a 29" tyre and 30" tyre thread which may shed a little light on this as well.
29" and 30" Question thread????
Also as another idea if any one wants to write a state specific tyre article it would be great.
Cheers and Well done.
Mark

[johnsmith]

I'll reference this in the tyre section if you remove the "f@#king" words out of you post..

Done.

Thanks for the link. Upon reading it (again) I did pick up some more useful information.

[ultimate]

I think this is a great initiative guys and I'm glad to see people actually caring about the legal tyre and wheel sizes. All of our customers who have gone for an engineer's certificate on our 4" smartlifts have passed except for three customers who were running the incorrect wheel sizes. I believe they were running wheels with a "0" offset which extends the wheel track more than the legal allowance. I tried to answer some of your questions so hopefully it sheds a bit of light on how the system works.

Currently, unless you have an engineer's certificate (that some of us may not wish to pay for [how much are they BTW?]),

When we first had our Hilux Smart Lift kit engineered, it cost us nearly $4500. Now it generally cost our customers around $600-800 as most of the engineer's in our region know the quality of our work and how well the kit performs. One thing to remember is an engineer can only follow the law. The law states that any suspension lift between 50mm-100mm has to be engineered. So therefore we can get it done. But with this, there are other aspects like a maximum headlight height of 1200mm which cannot be exceeded even with an engineer’s approval. The same goes with wheel tracks, the law states it cannot be more than 25mm greater than standard. This makes it really hard as some vehicles now like the D22 NAVARA have two different wheel tracks. The rear wheel track is actually 25mm shorter than the front which means you need rims with two different offsets. A point which is nearly impossible as most manufactures have never even heard of the different wheel tracks.

The wheel musn't foul any part of the body or suspension in all operating conditions (WTF does that mean?)

This basically means the wheel cannot contact any part of the vehicle. Some wheel offset pull the wheel in too close and they can hit the brakes, or suspension components when they are articulating or turning. Remember this law also covers every vehicle so it's also referring to people who throw larger rims on, and lower their vehicle. In some cases if you don't roll the guards they can contact the wheels. Most engineer's also insist this law refers to tyre contact. Which means if your 4WD tyre hits the upper control arm, body mount or guard in any part of its “range of movement”, it is deemed illegal.

Given that wheel track cannot be increased more than 25mm and tyre width no more than 26mm, what width and offset is going to keep me legal? I like the look of wider tyres and as I said in the title I am looking for maximum legal.

You do really need to talk to your local tyre and wheel expert or an engineer as we normally stay out of this area. But off the top of my head I believe the legal offset when running larger tyres on an SR is +18-22. If anybody finds that to be wrong please let me know. For your tyres I would recommend an AT. I find these to be the most practical all round. I hope this information has helped you out.

[felix]

Tyres.... firstly what's legal and then what's insurable, they can be two different things.
Contact your insurance co ( preferably by email so you get a written reply ) and tell them what size tyres you intend to fit to your car and ask will you be covered in the event of an accident.
Their reply should be along the lines of....'if the tyres were not deemed to be the cause of the accident then you will be covered'.
This my friend is a fact as I recently had to make a claim ( i have larger than standard tyres) and no mention whatsoever was made about tyre size, claim went through with no problems.

[ultimate]

Tyres.... firstly what's legal and then what's insurable, they can be two different things.
Contact your insurance co ( preferably by email so you get a written reply ) and tell them what size tyres you intend to fit to your car and ask will you be covered in the event of an accident.
Their reply should be along the lines of....'if the tyres were not deemed to be the cause of the accident then you will be covered'.
This my friend is a fact as I recently had to make a claim ( i have larger than standard tyres) and no mention whatsoever was made about tyre size, claim went through with no problems.

This is true. But only to the extent of the accident. For instant if somebody runs up the back of you or vice versa. Generally it won't matter. But if you’re driving through a residential area and a kid runs out in front of you and you kill them, it's a different story. The police call in an engineer and together they go all over your car with a measuring tape and assess it based on the ADRs and what you have had engineered (where required). If you do have a vehicle that isn't engineered but has been lifted over 2", or running larger tyres than allowed, the police investigation squad can say that this extra height was a contributing factor to the accident as it prevented you from seeing the child and reacting quick enough. If this happens your insurance and registration can be void, leaving you to pick up the bill. Worst case scenario I know but anything can happen. This is why we won't allow a 4" lift to be fitted to a vehicle unless they are going to get an engineer's certificate.

[felix]

ultimate
Very comforting....

[rodw]

Just looking at the link and a couple of observations:
1. The widest rim would appear to be 8" for 4WD's (front wheel rules limit the rim width)
2. The document is silent about whether you must stick to what your tyre placcard says or whether optional tyre and rim combinations on the model apply. If this is the case, then SR to SR5 to TRD upgrades should be permitted.



I suspect that they would be forced to accept TRD sized tyres as I was talking to Tasmanian Road Transport officals the other day and they said they have adopted the NCOP (which in turn is based on the ADR's) and they would accept the TRD tyre sizes as it was the largest optional tyre size available for the vehicle so your 15 mm increase is therefore allowed from the TRD 30.5" tyre. Whether or not RTA would want engineereing certification for this would need to be determined.

I would be ringing the RTA and checking if they accept the largest optional tyre size available on that model from the manufacturer. I posted a thread the other day asking for confirmation of the actual manufacturers tyre make and model so establish the tyre diameter so do a search on TRD tyres as the source is there.

And yes, the maximum track increase of 25mm for an IFS 4WD wouild limit Offsets from +30mm factory to +17.5mm modified eg.that is calculated by 30mm - (25mm/2).

[ultimate]

ultimate
Very comforting....

Yeah I don't mean to scare anybody but the outcome is very real. Insurance companies will sometimes do anything to get out of paying for a large claim and finding defects on your vehicle is one. There are a lot of dodgy online companies these days selling parts to unsuspecting buyers which are completely illegal and dangerous on road. A perfect example is anybody that's selling extended shackles to road registered vehicles. Every publication states these as prohibited for on road use yet you see them every day on 4WDs every day. A disaster waiting to happen.

I would be ringing the RTA and checking if they accept the largest optional tyre size available on that model from the manufacturer. I posted a thread the other day asking for confirmation of the actual manufacturers tyre make and model so establish the tyre diameter so do a search on TRD tyres as the source is there.

I just spoke with the RTA technical hotline and the “15mm measurement” is calculated against your particular model and specifically “your” tyre placard. Seen as the TRD is a different model you can't base the increase on its tyre size. The RTA did however state they have no problem allowing a larger tyre size (more than the 15mm increase) to be fitted if an RTA registered engineer approves it. The best bet to cover yourself is simply call around to a few of the local engineers and get pricing and information. Being a straight forward tyre increase (I'm talking about a 31 or 32" tyre), I believe most engineer's won't have a problem with it and the cost involved will probably be quite small, but worth it in the long run.

[MADDOG]

If that's the case, and the model is an SR the factory wheel offset is +45 (isn't it?). so 45mm - (25mm/2) = 32.5
Can anyone confirm it's +45, I've forgotten.

[hodgo81]

I still find the biggest question is the difference between sr, sr5 and trd. some people will say make = toyota, model = hilux, variant = sr/sr5/trd/workmate etc.

This is the thing that we need to figure out for all states...is a variant different to a model?

Will have to check, what is the model on our complaiance plate?

[johnsmith]

Thanks everone for some already very informative posts.

hodgo81's post brings up an interesting point, one which I may call Toyota about.

I have read around the forums that the TRD does have a different brake system than the the SR and SR5. However, the SR5 (which has identical brakes, engine, etc) does have both larger wheel width and tyre outside diameter than the SR. I understand that the SR5 is a glossier version of the SR with no (?) differences in engine, suspension, brakes etc. but is sold with larger wheels and tyres and a tyre placard which reflects this. If Toyota were to confirm this then it might also be reasonable for them to change their tyre spec for the SR. This would therefore enable SR owners to base their tyre specs off SR5 sizes. Does anyone have any suggestions as to who I would call at Toyota to talk to someone about this.

[ultimate]

This would therefore enable SR owners to base their tyre specs off SR5 sizes. Does anyone have any suggestions as to who I would call at Toyota to talk to someone about this.
Quote hodgo81 Re: Maximum LEGAL SR tyre and wheel sizes NSW
by hodgo81 on Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:29 pm

I still find the biggest question is the difference between sr, sr5 and trd. some people will say make = toyota, model = hilux, variant = sr/sr5/trd/workmate etc.

This is the thing that we need to figure out for all states...is a variant different to a model

It's all on toyota's website; check out this pdf- http://www.toyota.com.au/TWR/content/static/74844.pdf
Page 3 shows the differences between the models. So this shows how each model has to be treated indivually when working out legal tyre sizes. You should also note that the offsets are different for the different size rims. The TRD isn't listed any more as production has stopped on that model, but anybody with a TRD can supply the specs from their own tyre placard.

[rodw]

Guys, I think it it is still worth calling the RTA and ask them to clarify the policy in the light of the position taken by the Tasmanian authorities. Not much point calling Toyota, they don't say yes or no to what is legal..

Ask them, "In Tasmania, the authorities have stated that the maximum tyre size is taken from the largest tyre size for that model vehicle. In relation to the Hilux, there have been 3 models released, the TRD, SR5 and SR. All of them have different tyre and rim combinations and the TRD had the largest diameter tyre, so the Tasmanians would calculate tyre sizes from this diameter. In the light of this, what is the RTA's position in relation to my SR/SR5? given all states are working to the ame ADRs?"

Now this assumes the TRD was still on the market when your car was purchased.

[ultimate]

Guys, I think it it is still worth calling the RTA and ask them to clarify the policy in the light of the position taken by the Tasmanian authorities. Not much point calling Toyota, they don't say yes or no to what is legal..

Ask them, "In Tasmania, the authorities have stated that the maximum tyre size is taken from the largest tyre size for that model vehicle. In relation to the Hilux, there have been 3 models released, the TRD, SR5 and SR. All of them have different tyre and rim combinations and the TRD had the largest diameter tyre, so the Tasmanians would calculate tyre sizes from this diameter. In the light of this, what is the RTA's position in relation to my SR/SR5? given all states are working to the ame ADRs?"

Now this assumes the TRD was still on the market when your car was purchased.

I did specifcally ask the RTA about running off the TRD model and the exact reply was that it "goes off your particular model". I think if you tried asking why they do it differently in Tasmania they would just throw it back at "being a different state". Every state goes off the ADRs but they also have their extra little pieces. If anybody can find otherwise please let me know. But from what I have learnt from the RTA, it is stickly 15mm over the size specified on your vehicle's plate. The only acception would be if there was a larger tyre optioned for your model. Here's the number for the RTA technical line if anybody does what them to clarify- 1300 137 302

[D4D Hilux]

ultimate - no being a smart arse but looking in your 'shed' i says you are running 33" tyres..... you seem like the kinda bloke that would insist on everything being legal.... how do you do this legally??

Just wondering i there is a loop hole by going through an engineer??

Cheers

[Chancha_Blanca]

johnsmith, I had a quick read of your post and others.

I have an SR which they come with factory fitted 205 x 16 on 6" rims, the max i could go without an engineers cert was 235 x 16" x 6" rims. I wanted to run 31" x 10.5" x 15" on 7" rims (265 x 70 x 15)

Rang the RTA technical support phone number and they stated the i would need to get the ute check by an engineer. So i rang Rob from VMC Engineering. Of the top of my head i think i paid him $540 plus $30 for the Blue slip. (He also checked and oked the 2" suspention lift.) Also got the speedo tested and was 5% off from the factory tyres which is ok since ADR state speedo can only be off by 10% -when changing tyre size- $70 from a workshop in Lidcombe.

NRMA stated they will cover me/ute as long the Ute was OKed by the RTA updating the ute "new" specs details.

If i didnt get the ute engineered and if there was an accident regardless who was at fault, then NRMA or any other insurance company would of not covered me. When there is an accident, the insurance companies will first check for tyres/wheels and lift or drop of the car and check you have it engineered, if not then they will not cover you.

So for peace of mind, get the ute checked.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


VMC (Vehicle Modification Consultants) Engineering
Robert Elliott
Telephone: (02)96096676
Fascimile: (02)96096676
E-Mail: vmc_engineeing@dodo.com.au

Check for your local engineer from the site below.

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/pls/wwws ... agents#VMC (Vehicle Modification Consultants) Engineering

[rodw]

I did specifcally ask the RTA about running off the TRD model and the exact reply was that it "goes off your particular model". I think if you tried asking why they do it differently in Tasmania they would just throw it back at "being a different state". Every state goes off the ADRs but they also have their extra little pieces. If anybody can find otherwise please let me know. But from what I have learnt from the RTA, it is stickly 15mm over the size specified on your vehicle's plate. The only acception would be if there was a larger tyre optioned for your model. Here's the number for the RTA technical line if anybody does what them to clarify- 1300 137 302

Brendon all good information. So define what a model is. Isn't the Hilux a model and SR/SR5/TRD a variant of that model? Isn't the SR/SR5 just a variant on trim level? What if you did a TRD brake upgrade and whacked some Prado calipers on the front end? That would be a legal modification (brake substitution) which probably does not even need engineering as it is available on that (Hilux) model. With that upgrade, what would their (or your engineer's) opinion be?

I know the 15 mm rule is sacrosanct (and will go out to 25 mm for the Hilux if the NCOP is adopted) but how is the base configuration defined? What is the position if you order an SR and specify SR5 rims and tyres? Toyota will sell it to you and that then is a factory configuration.

[ultimate]

ultimate - no being a smart arse but looking in your 'shed' i says you are running 33" tyres..... you seem like the kinda bloke that would insist on everything being legal.... how do you do this legally??

Just wondering I there is a loop hole by going through an engineer??

Cheers

That's a fair point and I'm glad you asked. When you get an engineer's certificate for your suspension, they go over the whole vehicle and assess everything in relation to the ADRs. Our vehicle passed all the testing conducted by the engineer and was deemed to be a dramatic improvement over the handling and safety of a standard SR. So even though our 33" tyres are well above the 15mm allowance, it has all been engineered and certified. So if I ever do get pulled over or am involved in an accident, I have the paper work to certify that everything is legal and safe on the vehicle.

If i didnt get the ute engineered and if there was an accident regardless who was at fault, then NRMA or any other insurance company would of not covered me. When there is an accident, the insurance companies will first check for tyres/wheels and lift or drop of the car and check you have it engineered, if not then they will not cover you.

So for peace of mind, get the ute checked.

I completely agree. I know an engineer's certificate is another expense but it's worth doing in the long run. Besides, what's the point in paying insurance if there's a possibility the vehicle will not be covered in the long run? I spoke with one of the engineer’s out here at Campbelltown and he said there is no problem with engineering larger tyres. The two main points for assessment are-
-Lock to Lock (The Tyres can’t contact any part of the suspension or body)
-Fully loaded to GVM (The Tyres can’t scrub or contact any part of the suspension or body)
-If needed the speedo has to be properly calibrated
He also said that the engineering would cost approximately $450+GST, and like Chancha_Blanca’s will also certify the suspension lift. This is basically because the whole vehicle has be to assessed as the increase in tyre size is also raising the height of the vehicle.This is definitely a benefit, especially now as the government is currently drafting the new VSI50 laws which will of course affect suspension modifications.I have provided the engineer’s details below for if anyone wants to speak directly with him about it.
Simon
Findlay R K pty ltd-Engineering consultants
simon@findlay.net.au
0411449265

Brendon all good information. So define what a model is. Isn't the Hilux a model and SR/SR5/TRD a variant of that model? Isn't the SR/SR5 just a variant on trim level? What if you did a TRD brake upgrade and whacked some Prado calipers on the front end? That would be a legal modification (brake substitution) which probably does not even need engineering as it is available on that (Hilux) model. With that upgrade, what would their (or your engineer's) opinion be?

I know the 15 mm rule is sacrosanct (and will go out to 25 mm for the Hilux if the NCOP is adopted) but how is the base configuration defined? What is the position if you order an SR and specify SR5 rims and tyres? Toyota will sell it to you and that then is a factory configuration.

I understand what your trying to do rob, and I wish it was that simple. According the RTA and the engineers; the SR,SR5 and TRD are definitely all different models of a Hilux and are assessed individually. The relation to 15mm increase on the largest tyre size optioned for your vehicle relates to the compliance set for the vehicle model by the department of infrastructure. I may be wrong but I believe the TRD parts are seen more as a dealer option and not a factory option. I also spoke with Toyota Australia this morning, and they informed me the TRD wheel/tyre option and brakes are not a factory option for an SR or SR5. They can only be purchased as an aftermarket part which means we can’t run of these specks. In relation the brake upgrade in particular, this segment comes from VSI 6-

Brakes
Brake systems must not be modified such that the brake performance is reduced or that the risk of failure of the brake
system is increased. Brake discs or drums must not be machined beyond the reconditioning limits set down by the
manufacturer. When brakes are upgraded using components or systems which were not standard options for the
vehicle, an engineering certificate is necessary to attest to the adequacy of the new system, eg: hydraulic fluid sufficiency,
balanced braking on all wheels, brake pedal pressure limitations and braking performance.

[D4D Hilux]

good info, thanks for the reply mate...