Front v's rear locker

Gearboxs, Transfers, Tailshafts, Diffs, axles and CVs

Front v's rear locker

Postby rodw on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 8:57 +0000

Hi guys,

Found this link that tests front v's rear lockers. Interesting results
http://winter2005.4wheelingoz.com/wi05% ... 20TEST.htm

Not wanting to get into an argument, but with a LSD in the rear, the front locker has always made more sense to me if you are prepared to be gentle on the right foot and this article seems to confirm this.
User avatar
rodw
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Brisbane, QLD


 

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Hilux Max on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 1:31 +0000

interesting read.....would it have made a difference that it was a patrol with a live front axle and more weight over the front than a Hilux IFS front?

the patrols are known for having a better rear LSD diff than hilux anyway.

would like to see this test done on a dual locked hilux.
User avatar
Hilux Max
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 12434
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Skog07 on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 1:45 +0000

McSumway.
Could give us a great insight on this topic, with personal experience with the hilux.
Also like said Mmaaxx the LSD on the Patrol is alot better than the Lux. And also the Patrol has fantastic atriculation keep its wheels on the ground alot better than a leaf sprung hilux. Which get maximum benefit out of the LSD itself.
Cheers
Skog
User avatar
Skog07
Moderator
 
Posts: 4940
Joined: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Baulkham Hills, NSW

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby McSumWay on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 4:03 +0000

Would need to do some specific runs as I normally use both if I think traction could be an issue - better to engage all assistance early on in my opinion.

Mark we will need to go for a run in the next few weeks to test it out. Purely for research purposes only :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I have nothing good to say down here so I wont say anything at all
User avatar
McSumWay
 
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: SW Sydney, Right Here on line

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby rodw on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 4:13 +0000

I also found a bit of stuff that indicated the so called weak diff on the Toyota IFS front appeared to be because there was a bit of flex under load that put pressure on the end of the R&P teeth so the tooth tips shear. The new ARB locker design for the Hilux is a lot stronger than in the past (ARB say by 300%) and stiffens up the front diff and prevents this gear separation to occur. Accordingly it was suggested that diff failures could be virtually eliminated once the ARB diff lock went in. Combine this with what a mate who recently locked a well used patrol told me. He told me that now, he has to reach for the lockers where he could get through in the past because the rear dif fis now 100% open and his LSD has gone.

So all in all, locking the front sounds like a good first step to me.

McSumWay, we look forward to the results of your testing! Wish I could come along to help out!
User avatar
rodw
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Brisbane, QLD

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Hilux Max on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 6:50 +0000

Yeah that sounds the way to go Rod, locking the front and then maybe getting a tighter lsd when you see it on the way out.

McSumWay, I reckon a video recording of the test would make for some great viewing.

what you reckon?
User avatar
Hilux Max
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 12434
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Skog07 on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:08 +0000

Rod.
I know where your coming from with the lockers activated to drive over stuff. I have been frequently caught out when I have forgotten to activate the Locker, and have got caught up on the slightest of ruts as a soon that rear wheel lifts its over.... Until I engage it....
The issue is the front end, and the CV itself. The diff is a strong as a rock. Its upspeced from the older model by a long shot
An IFS front end has it drive change through three planes. From the diff, down to the wheel then it changes direction to spin the wheel parallel to the diff itself. Then when you turn your wheel left and right the drive puts extra torque through the CVs. Most IFS Cv failures come from maximum torque applied at full downward extension of the suspension and when the wheels are turned.
A Solid axle front end only moves in one plane. With relation to drive to the wheels through the diff. And only has one CV. The drive from the diff moves along the axis of axle itself . The purpose of the Cv is to enable left to right movement of the wheel so the vehicle can be turned. Even though the suspension still goes up and down the diff moves in conjunction with the wheel travel.
Warren what diff would you lock first, the front or rear??
I know Warren we do have a few new projects for the New Year.. When do you want to order the Lefty's... :P :P
Cheers and Merry Christmas
Skog
User avatar
Skog07
Moderator
 
Posts: 4940
Joined: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Baulkham Hills, NSW

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Ruggedlux on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:12 +0000

Fitting locker next week and its going in the rear. At least i can maintain steering. If locker goes in the front steering is compromised. My thoughts only.
User avatar
Ruggedlux
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: point cook, VIC

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Hilux Max on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:15 +0000

can I ask what sort of locker and what price you got quoted for drive in drive out service and where from?
User avatar
Hilux Max
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 12434
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Ruggedlux on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:27 +0000

ARB air locker. About $1400 fitted. Will be a 2 day job as i am also getting ARB steel side steps fitted, Brown Davis bash plate and a 40K service.All up around $3K
User avatar
Ruggedlux
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: point cook, VIC

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Hilux Max on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:34 +0000

I did my 40K service today...only cots me 70bux in diff fluids and a couple hours of my time.

whats the brown davis bash plate like? compared to the TJM

1400 fitted aint bad...with compressor?
User avatar
Hilux Max
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 12434
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Ruggedlux on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 7:44 +0000

Brown Davis is stronger than TJM as i have been told by the experts. Compressor is extra on the price but i have one fitted already under the bonnet. I get my service done at ARB not Toyota. I let a 4wd outlet with 4wdrivers doing my service than some young pimple faced apprentice at Toyota service my rig. ARB Thomastown have mostly new Hilluxes as their trucks of choice so they know what to look for.(fingers crossed)
User avatar
Ruggedlux
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: point cook, VIC

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby Skog07 on Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:11 +0000

Mmaaxx.
Did you notice in the products section in the December Issue of 4wd action that the "New hilux" e'locker is ready for distribution. Through Harrop Enginnering.
Any thoughts?
It does look the goods. No compressor
Pricing would be of great interest.
www.harrop.com.au
Cheers
Skog
User avatar
Skog07
Moderator
 
Posts: 4940
Joined: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Baulkham Hills, NSW

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby rodw on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 3:45 +0000

Opposite Lock can supply and fit The eaton e-locker. They reckon price is similar to an ARB air locker, but pretty sure they are factoring in the price of the compressor. They have been trying to get me interested, but have not been in a hurry to fit one. I also think they are only available for the rear on our model.

Skog, Getting off topic i know but Hmmm; Lefty's, now you are talking (http://www.inchwormgear.com/store/produ ... cts_id=985 for those who have not met Lefty). I also found this product which has a kit for the tacomas http://www.high-impact.net/transmission ... ochure.htm. A Lefty would be a first on this forum I think and can mate with an Atlas. Would be good to add a bit more low speed to my auto :lol: Note that Marlin Crawler also have the Taco box but Lefty is superior as it's internal torque loads are about 50% lower than the Marlin due to a different design According to the Pirate forum. Because of this, Marlins go pop more often. Besides, Lefty is available in Australia! But man, that Klune is nice!

Also the limited wheel travel in any IFS makes it easy to lift the front wheel and loose traction so th elocker woud help. Of course by stengthening the diff, you move the weak point to the CV, but that is not necessarilly a bad thing, lot cheaper to fix than a diff. I agree though, the combination of air under the front at speed has to snap something with the amount of torque these trucks can deliver. Back off as you go over is my motto.
User avatar
rodw
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Brisbane, QLD

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby bj343 on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 7:55 +0000

This drifting a bit off topic, Warren I like the sound of the lefty looking forward to you and mark fitting one so I can get the guts, IMO a geared down low range with front and rear air lockers are the way to go, lower gearing will help to crawl over things with out upping the revs saving the CV's
User avatar
bj343
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 2:00 +0000
Location: Blue Mountains, NSW

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby KTM525EXC on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 5:01 +0000

hey all
i wanted to put this up again because im getting lockers fitted at the end of the month.
with max recently getting a front locker and the big increase in traction is it worth doing both i didnt want to ruin max's build up thread with this debate lol.

guys on here have now all the combinations avalible now, so it would be good to hear all ya thoughts.

initially i was going to order both but now unsure.

guys with rear lockers coz ya diff is 100% open when locker is dissengauged how does it go?? eg in sand??? do ya have it locked a fair bit of the time when 4x4ing and un locking when tight turning???

also would there be more or less stress (eg wind up) on the front running both ends locked? :?
also how much is steering compramised in eg just rear, just front, or both??

being IFS i think it is a real improvement locking the front due to ya tyres lift a fair bit of the time where the rear has alot more travel meaning it has more time on the ground.

im now leaning at getting just a front and getting the rear tourqued up. but then again i do a lot of articulation work so a combination might be better.

im getting a better deal getting both done at the same time so i want to get it right first time. i know its ultimatly up 2 the individual and there needs, but it would be good to look in to in greater depth.

looking 4ward to ya opinions

Cheers Troy
D4D THE WAY TO BE!!!!!!
KTM if it's not orange, its a lemon
KTM's Kick Arse Buildup
User avatar
KTM525EXC
 
Posts: 6114
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 1:00 +0000
Location: ADELAIDE, SA

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby McSumWay on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 6:15 +0000

I lost track of this thread a while ago. Sorry guys.

I would lock rear first next time. I reckon the biggest improvement came from the rear. I put it down to the weight transfer issue.

I did go front first for the same reasons Mmaaxx said but found the rear gave more drive. You could feel the push coming through from the rear more than pull from the front (if that makes sense).

In normal driving with the open rear diff I have not really had a problem. I noticed the difference at first offroad in normal driving but very quickly adusted my driving style and it no longer bothers me.

If you could only get one a rear will dramatically improve your grip but a locker at either end will improve your ability.

In a few weeks i'll head out and film three runs on a good easy climb I know. The only one I can't do is the LSD.
I have nothing good to say down here so I wont say anything at all
User avatar
McSumWay
 
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: SW Sydney, Right Here on line

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby rodw on Mon, 06 Apr 2009 6:17 +0000

Tony, Had a bit of a look at your profile. You have a well equipped rig. Depends how deep your pockets are. Why don't you try the front first and see how you go. But have a good read of Max's driving technique. These rigs have awesome power and torque, so a gentle approach like Max will get you further. If you spin wheels, you loose traction, increase shock loads and put CV's etc on the line.

There is sone good info in the link I posted and the whole argument makes sense to me. Most people say do the back first, but my mate's expereince with the loss of the LSD and that article is enough for me to believe Max has done it the right way doing the front first.
User avatar
rodw
 
Posts: 3195
Joined: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 2:00 +0000
Location: Brisbane, QLD

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby KTM525EXC on Tue, 07 Apr 2009 6:10 +0000

hey mcsumway

do you have the rear locked all the time in sand or loose stuff? or keep it open till ya need it?
Troy
D4D THE WAY TO BE!!!!!!
KTM if it's not orange, its a lemon
KTM's Kick Arse Buildup
User avatar
KTM525EXC
 
Posts: 6114
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 1:00 +0000
Location: ADELAIDE, SA

Re: Front v's rear locker

Postby McSumWay on Tue, 07 Apr 2009 6:23 +0000

Open till needed. But I do look ahead and if I think it may be slippery i'll click in the rear. If it looks really tuff lock em both.

The difference between my LSD and the open diff was noticable but no probs to change driving habits and overcome.

Running mud tyres and having a fairly heavy vehicle means I do drive more conservatively than other vehicles and I think it is this that means the open diff doesn't affect me onroad at all.

You'd be surprised how little you use the LSD in normal driving. In sand I don't use the lockers at all.

If I had a Patrol LSD I prob wouldn't change the rear - they are so much better and don't drop off in performance.
I have nothing good to say down here so I wont say anything at all
User avatar
McSumWay
 
Posts: 1333
Joined: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 12:00 +0000
Location: SW Sydney, Right Here on line

Next

Return to Drive Train Components

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests