Toyota faces class action

General discussion of basically anything related to the 2015> Hilux

Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby wildthing on Wed, 29 Jul 2020 12:25 +0000

Hi,
Has anyone had an email from Bannister Law in the past few days about this issue? I received one yesterday, as did a mate with a Prado, so it seems they may be cranking the issue up again.
However I notice all the previous contributions on this thread are back in 2019 or earlier, so maybe the effort to recruit participants didn't go so well the first time they tried it.
I'm in two minds about participating - I have found my Toyota dealership good to deal with on this issue, and they have replaced the DPF as well as providing the in-dash notification of a burn in progress, as well as the manual burn switch.
Interested to hear the thoughts of others.
Coincidentally I'm awaiting a payment in the next month or so from Volkswagen re my wife's Golf, arising from the class action re the dodgy VW diesel pollution data a couple of years back.
Cheers
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Pitbull80 on Mon, 03 Aug 2020 8:09 +0000

wildthing wrote:Hi,
Has anyone had an email from Bannister Law in the past few days about this issue? I received one yesterday, as did a mate with a Prado, so it seems they may be cranking the issue up again.
However I notice all the previous contributions on this thread are back in 2019 or earlier, so maybe the effort to recruit participants didn't go so well the first time they tried it.
I'm in two minds about participating - I have found my Toyota dealership good to deal with on this issue, and they have replaced the DPF as well as providing the in-dash notification of a burn in progress, as well as the manual burn switch.
Interested to hear the thoughts of others.
Coincidentally I'm awaiting a payment in the next month or so from Volkswagen re my wife's Golf, arising from the class action re the dodgy VW diesel pollution data a couple of years back.
Cheers


Hi Wildthing,

Yeah mate I got the same email last week - I, like you, have had a pretty good customer service experience with Toyota happy to come to the party with repairs / DPF replacements, however, this has come at a considerable cost given that the car has been off the road for a couple of days at a time and it is used for my business which equates to lost revenue.

I'm interested in other peoples thoughts as well including the liability factor if you sign up for a class action and who pays for legal costs if the case is unsuccessful etc.
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby witherz on Tue, 04 Aug 2020 9:20 +0000

There are details provided if you go through the process... my understanding is there is a finance company putting up the funds to cover the legal fees, and the lawyers doing it all. If unsuccessful, then you personally don't have to pay anything. The finance company has taken out insurance to cover their losses, so the lawyers get paid regardless.
If the class action gets up/wins, then the finance company and the lawyers get paid first, plus extra bonuses for winning. The rest is then divided out amongst everyone else.
I think by default you are included in the class action unless you opt-out. But they want you to actively opt-in so the numbers look good to the finance company to keep funding it going forward.

I think there hadn't been much action for a while as they were going through the motions with the courts and scheduling etc, so there wasn't much to talk about. But now the courts have given dates and it's ramping up, hence the further comm's.
If you are considering this, please read through and make sure you understand things for yourself, I've just given my take on it as I read through it all.

I don't know how I personally feel about it... Toyota appear to be trying to do the right thing in correcting issues and generally the dealership has been good, but it still doesn't mean that it hasn't been a pain in the a*** having to take the vehicle back several times. Part of my decision to buy a hilux was the build quality as I wanted to buy a vehicle I could keep for a very long time (at least 10-15 years), but I do now question if I'm going to end up having ongoing issues well before then - only time will tell.
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby wildthing on Wed, 05 Aug 2020 10:47 +0000

Yep, my thinking is to just wait to see what happens with this (ie, don't opt in or out).
I guess one question is what happens if the class action proceeds to settlement and Toyota reach an agreement to pay the litigation funders, the lawyers, and finally the vehicle owners.....does this then absolve them of any further responsibility for dealing with problem DPFs.
What would happen if, for example, an owner had a new problem and attempted to get it sorted out by Toyota, but they were able to say "this has been covered by the class action and compensation has been paid, so we have no further responsibility"?
Must confess I think lots of these actions are aimed at making lawyers rich and funders profitable, rather than helping Joe Average !!
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Allords on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 10:51 +0000

wildthing wrote:1. Must confess I think lots of these actions are aimed at making lawyers rich and funders profitable, rather than helping Joe Average !!
2. does this then absolve them of any further responsibility for dealing with problem DPFs.


1. Yep, thats about it in a nutshell. The only benefit i see is the use of a big stick
2. Not to my way of thinking.We have consumer laws here, where a product has to be fit for purpose, durable, and be expected to last a reasonable amount of time. I see a DPF as like an exhaust system. No maintenance or service, should last 10 yrs min. Providing of course you haven't messed with it. After that you're probably asking too much.

Mind you. The 5th injector is probably a wear item, but if the hole in the DPF blocks (as they do) its not the injector that fails
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 1:38 +0000

Isn't it a bit cynical to suggest it's done for the lawyers and funders? If you buy a product which is not fit for purpose wouldn't you appreciate someone going in to bat for you? Yes lawyers get paid but what's the alternative? Maybe just let the manufacturer get away with it? These cases are just one way to bring the justice consumers deserve. Lawyers do seem to have a bad reputation but they are a necessary evil if justice is to be served.
I'm sure Toyota has a reputation to uphold and they will certainly be throwing billions of dollars at this to minimise the damage from a product which should be fit for purpose. These cases bring the problem out into the public domain but if you were to put yourself against the might of Toyota as an individual you wouldn't get very far. Yes Toyota dealers are by and large attempting to solve these problems but mainly because there is a course of action to take if they don't.
Edit: how would Volkswagen have dealt with their disaster if these cases were not brought?
Cheers Gipsy :D
My 2013 auto D4D DC SR5, prefilter, 3" exhaust and Chip with egt probe, stock SR5 rims with Toyo Open Country AT2 265/65R/17's
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby numberplate on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 2:21 +0000

Gipsy wrote:Edit: how would Volkswagen have dealt with their disaster if these cases were not brought?


would have ignored you like Ford , GMH and FCA
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Bushwalker8 on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 2:24 +0000

Gipsy wrote: These cases bring the problem out into the public domain but if you were to put yourself against the might of Toyota as an individual you wouldn't get very far. Yes Toyota dealers are by and large attempting to solve these problems but mainly because there is a course of action to take if they don't.

All manufacturers have numerous symptom/solution and service campaigns running quietly in the background. Examples for Gen 8 have been discussed on this very forum, including some new ones recently revealed by a dealer insider. None of these needed self righteous chest thumping action, what makes you think the most publicly visible one of all wasn't going to get resolved?
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 3:16 +0000

So the airbag recall was altruistic on the part of manufacturers? It took a long time before this came to light despite manufacturers knowing for years, or possibly decades. They did their best to stifle any publicity and it took legal action to facilitate a solution.
I'm a bit confused about whom is 'chest thumping'. Please explain.
Cheers Gipsy :D
My 2013 auto D4D DC SR5, prefilter, 3" exhaust and Chip with egt probe, stock SR5 rims with Toyo Open Country AT2 265/65R/17's
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Allords on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 3:38 +0000

Gipsy, I dont think its cynical at all. Its how they work.
Their way of working is to bill in hours, so the longer something runs the better for them.
By brother is a lawyer, he plays what called "telephone ping pong". Meaning you call the other lawyer when you know he's not there, and they call you back when they know you aren't there. Its billed @ 6 min intervals.

If you've ever been in family courts, or a disputed will. These jokers know how much $ is in the pot and will run it down real fast.
Something like VW diesel gate, might be a proper use of a class action, they lied, cheated, and gave you something they knew was a falsehood.
With the airbag situation, well the ACCC started that, because people died as a result of deployment. No lawyers that i know of have started a class action.
As far as Toyota goes, they have worked with me, ive not had an issue debating the fact that my car blew white smoke, or the thump in the driveline that i had. Its all fixed.Ive also been assured that any further problems out of warranty of the above will be taken care of.

At the end off the day , i think us early adopters were guinnea pigs in relation to the DPF. They'll get it right and hopefully retro fit the fix to all cars affected , just like the airbags.
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 3:42 +0000

Where in the sales contract did you agree to be a'guinea pig'?
Yes the ACCC got involved in Australia but we Aussies aren't the only drivers with airbags, cheat diesel ECU's and a long list of other 'problems' including dpf issues.
About lawyers, plumbers and carpenters, roof tilers and so-on, they all work for money and naturally try to get as much as possible.
Cheers Gipsy :D
My 2013 auto D4D DC SR5, prefilter, 3" exhaust and Chip with egt probe, stock SR5 rims with Toyo Open Country AT2 265/65R/17's
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Bushwalker8 on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 3:46 +0000

Gipsy wrote:I'm a bit confused about whom is 'chest thumping'. Please explain.

The pervasive presumption around the issue/action that big is bad and needs to be stood up to.

You didn't answer the question why you think this one wasn't going to get resolved regardless?
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 3:51 +0000

How confident can we be that these issues will be resolved? Just like James Hardy, talk to the families of people who have suffered and died because of a known issue.
It's not about big is bad, it's about justice and just like lawyers, class action and democracy, it's a bad system but it's the best we have.
Cheers Gipsy :D
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Bushwalker8 on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 4:11 +0000

Gipsy wrote:How confident can we be that these issues will be resolved?

I worked for a major global product manufacturer and at any point in time we had hundreds of such issues in the pot.
Almost all solutions and campaigns were initiated internally from our own analysis of service case data, parts consumption anomalies, field staff escalations and so on. Common place in most large organisations including Toyota.
And from time to time we were also subject to customers on collective conspiracy theories.
My own experience was that the inordinate amount of time & money spent addressing these situations could have been much better spent on getting on with the programs and resolving the issues a lot more quickly.
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 5:45 +0000

Yes I totally agree money and time should be used to resolve these issues. The large numbers of Hilux vehicles sold here and abroad with dpf issues have also cost their owners in lost time and productivity as well as the resale value. Don't you think they should be compensated? It's one thing to actually fix the problem but it doesn't stop there if the vehicle is not fit for purpose. I'm not having a shot at Toyota here, I own three of them and my first ever new vehicle was a corolla in 1968 so I am and will be a loyal Toyota owner. No axe to grind and since I don't have a dpf I am fortunate that I have not had issues with any of mine except the airbag fiasco (which was not Toyota per se but their supplier of airbags).
Cheers Gipsy :D
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Allords on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 7:53 +0000

Gipsy wrote:Where in the sales contract did you agree to be a'guinea pig'?
Yes the ACCC got involved in Australia but we Aussies aren't the only drivers with airbags, cheat diesel ECU's and a long list of other 'problems' including dpf issues.
About lawyers, plumbers and carpenters, roof tilers and so-on, they all work for money and naturally try to get as much as possible.


I think you're missing the point.
Diesel gate was only ever found out by a university doing a study. Their study found a bunch of lies.
In the real world if a car has a sticker on it ( and lets keep this on topic) 2015+ hilux the average is something like 8 its / 100
Now theres no way that i achieve that, im at about 10.8/100. But in a lab maybe 8/100 is achievable. I don't complain about it, i just fill the tank.But if i bought a car to be more environmentally friendly, and found out that there was a pre medicated swindle , id be annoyed. Seriously, if the university in USA didn't find this out, we would be none the wiser. We would put it down to the fact that" it must be how i drive".
No we aren't the only ones with airbags.But the ACCC raised that issue. Others followed.

Lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians etc. I agree. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians play the same ganme.
If they are flat out with work, and you want a job done , they will quote you a stupid rate. Why? because they dont want your job...But if you accept that stupid quote , they will drop tools in a heartbeat and be at your place ready and willing.
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Allords on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 7:59 +0000

Bushwalker8 wrote:I worked for a major global product manufacturer and at any point in time we had hundreds of such issues in the pot.
Almost all solutions and campaigns were initiated internally from our own analysis of service case data, parts consumption anomalies, field staff escalations and so on. Common place in most large organisations including Toyota.
And from time to time we were also subject to customers on collective conspiracy theories.
My own experience was that the inordinate amount of time & money spent addressing these situations could have been much better spent on getting on with the programs and resolving the issues a lot more quickly.



Thats excellence, and conforming to requirements to provide a defect free product.
We all make mistakes, its how we go about it to resolve issues ad improve that makes all the difference
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Allords on Sat, 08 Aug 2020 8:07 +0000

Gipsy
I wouldn't put toyota in the same boat as VW or Hardie.
The later two were crooks. Toyota didn't engineer a defective product on purpose, their intention was to reduce pollution etc.
I know when im behind an 80 series or a GQ, and they put their foot down, soot and black smoke is everywhere.
They will find a solution, just like other manufactures with their teething problems when a new engine , chassis, cab, whatever is rolled out
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sun, 09 Aug 2020 6:52 +0000

Ok, so I read the thread through again and I get the drift, to join or not to join the class action!
When we buy a product the consumer Law And contract law say we must have a reasonable expectation that the goods are among other things
A) fit for purpose and
B) as described by the vendor.
If the goods fail on these issues the consumer has a right to seek remedy (which includes compensation or damages).
And the consumer Law says as purchasors we can't opt out of statutory rights under the law. Yes Toyota is doing its best to fix the problem, but remedies at law allow for such things as loss of earnings, pain and suffering, loss of value (resale value) and on and on. So you choose, opt in or opt out! I don't really care which you choose but I for one would opt in!
Cheers Gipsy :D
My 2013 auto D4D DC SR5, prefilter, 3" exhaust and Chip with egt probe, stock SR5 rims with Toyo Open Country AT2 265/65R/17's
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Re: Toyota faces class action

Postby Gipsy on Sun, 09 Aug 2020 7:02 +0000

Allords said
"Lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, electricians etc. I agree. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians play the same ganme.
If they are flat out with work, and you want a job done , they will quote you a stupid rate. Why? because they dont want your job...But if you accept that stupid quote , they will drop tools in a heartbeat and be at your place ready and willing."

That's called 'market forces' and free Market capital enterprise. I don't like it either but it's the system we live under; liberal capitalism and the free Market. Not much we can do about it but claim our rights under the law of the land.
So my friend do Toyota. When they design, manufacture and market a product, the economics of business (and Capital) work to reduce cost and maximise profits, so why should lawyers be excluded?
Allords, is that related to the stock market perchance? You also mentioned 'guinea pigs'. Is this to suggest Toyota didn't test run these vehicles? Some here reported dpf issues within 20thousand Kilometers. How much testing did Toyota do, or did they leave that to the 'guinea pigs'?
Cheers Gipsy :D
My 2013 auto D4D DC SR5, prefilter, 3" exhaust and Chip with egt probe, stock SR5 rims with Toyo Open Country AT2 265/65R/17's
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