Alternator

[rosco01]

Qwerty,
yes - the two deep cycle batteries I have had are/were "wet" cells - I don't know much about calcium or AGM types - the one in my 'lux did all we needed and was still up at its capacity when the vehicle was sold. The one in our van is coming up to 2 years old - and is used extensively (main power source for van - runs everything, but is under constant charge when connected to 240, 12 Anderson from tow vehicle or solar)... it is stil at capacity and allows us 2 days reserve if not able to charge.
The one in the 'lux needed topping up twice in the two years. The one in the van is maintenance free. Both have charge "condition" indicators.... red/clear/green - I haven't seen them go to red.. went clear a few times if needed charging.

Strangenuts - yes, something for you to consider - you have a great truck - it deserves upholding it's bullet-proof reputation by employing a bullet-proof wiring installation...

Relays - come back to this if you're not ready... but a few simple words will dispell the great mystery of relays....

Moderators! I probably should make a separate post with this - stomp on me if you want me to copy and paste it... then I'll come back and delete........


Relays - the simple ones....
Very, very simply put - it is a switch. To turn it on - you simply put 12v to it - end of story.

Now, what it does - when you switch it on (we'll get to that next) - it makes connections to the job you want it to do........ eg - if you want it to turn on a light - you connect a wire ( called a lead) from your battery to one terminal of the relay - and from another termiinal of the relay to the light. When the relay gets turned on - the two terminals get connected joining your two leads and the light comes on...... not rocket science... but confusing to many - it took me quite a while to realise that the great relay mystery was just so simple.... most make it hard - thinking it is complicated - it's not....

This next bit is where people get lost...... take a breath and put that stubby down for a sec...

To make the relay turn on (close, it's called) - you have to run power to it........ and you have to run an earth to it (usually the vehicle body).
To simplify understanding this - think of making the relay work the same as a light - it needs one lead from 12v and one from earth. When it gets both - the relay turns on.

At the end of the day - all you are doing is using one switch (the relay) to turn another one (the relay contacts inside)on/off.

The biggest advantage is - that a relay only uses/needs a very small/thin wire and power to turn it on/off.... there are only milli amps needed.... but - and this is mainly why they are used - that relay can make 30, 40 or even 70 amp heavy cabling turn on off..... as in "spotties", power supplies to fridges, power to compressors and even huge relays (called solenoids as in starter motor etc) to winches and battery to battery connections.

There are also many "clever" ways you can make them do things - but we'll keep it simple here and just make it turn on and off a light..... that's all you'll probably use one for in the near future.......

Go buy one (they are pretty cheap - Bursons, SuperCheap, Repco etc.... Narva are as good as any - five dollars maybe) and have a play - it's the way you are going to put the above into practice.... they are pretty cheap and you can't damage them unless you make them "switch" power to something much heavier than they can handle.......
Usually the 40 amp ones are used - you can do a lot with a 40A relay.

You'll need a relay and a bit of left over wire.... cut into four lengths. If you want to play at a higher level you can fit female spade terminals on one end of each wire (lead.... we should call these "leads") these slip onto the male spade terminals of the relay ... but you're just going to waste them for the purpose of this execise.... and simply putting the leads through the little holes in the relay and twisting them will be quite good enough... as long as they don't touch each other. You'll also need a 12v globe and some way of connecting it to two of the leads.. solder if you can or even an old globe socket with two leads coming out of it...... that's the easiest way..... if you do this - make sure the blasted thing works by connecting it directly to the battery terminals... I'd hate to have you do the following if the globe or the holder and its wires aren't working......

There are two types of those small black box automotive relays........ get one of the four pin (terminal) ones.... there is also a five pin - and if you want more on what the 5 can do beyond the four - let me know and I'll give you a bit more on this...... it's not much, but I'll confuse you even more if I add it here....

When you get it, you will see there are four pins underneath and they are all marked with a number - these numbers never change..... once you learn this - you have it forever.....

the numbers are - 30, 87....... 85 and 86.

The first two we will call the "switch" pins - just like any other "switch" you have used.
One wire in - one out..... turn the switch on and the two wires make contact........ same deal here - when the relay is "on" - the lead from 30 gets connected to the lead at 87 - exactly the same as a normal "mechanical" switch.

The second two we will call the "switching" pins - this is the same as any other thing you might have turned on or off (light, radio, camera etc.).
The big difference about switching a relay on or off is that you are turning on and off another switch (inside the relay) this is what you hear clunk when it turns on or off.
This inside switch can then turn something even bigger on or off..... make sense...? I hope so......

Write the following down....... it won't take long before you don't ever need to look at it again...

85 and 86 are the "switching" pins........ it doesn't matter which one of these you put your 12v to - it will work either way.
12v goes to one of these - earth to the other.

30 and 87 are the "switched' pins...... again - doesn't matter which way power comes from with a 4 pin.... 5 is different and we'll go through that later if you want to enjoy a bit more "fun"......

Now the good bit -grab your relay, leads and globe then go find a 12v battery.

Run a lead from 85 to the negative terminal of your battery - and connect a lead to 86 - don't connect this one to the battery - we are just going to touch and let go this from the battery positive.

To make sure your relay "works".....touch connect the other end of the 86 lead to the positive of the battery - you'll hear the relay "close"...... when this happens - it joins the other two pins......... 30 and 87 together and turns on the "switch".... that's all that is happening inside - two contacts are closing and opening as you touch/remove the 86 lead.

If you want to "see" this happen - connect a lead from 30 to the positive battery terminal and another from 87 to a light globe terminal.
Connect a lead from the negative terminal of the battery to the body of the light globe.

Do NOT.. did I mention NOT - connect positive to 30 and negative to 87..... or positive to 87 and negative to 30 or you'll make a "short" when you switch the relay on.
This is the ONLY thing you have to be careful of...... you wouldn't run a lead from your positive battery terminal to the negative battery terminal - would you...? same deal - 30 and 87 are joined (closed) when you switch on your relay..... they simply make the connection.

So, now we have the complete relay thingy..... with the above connections made... final check -

85 to battery negative, 86 about to be loosely connected (touch and let go) to battery positive.
30 to battery positive.
87 to light globe terminal.
Lead from battery negative to body of light globe.

Now, touch the loose lead to the battery again....... voila! the relay goes "clunk" and the light globe shows you what the inside of the relay has done.........
Remove the loose lead - and "clunk" again... and the light goes out........

That's it, strangenuts - you are now savvy with relays.......

Simply - as mentioned way up above - it's just an electrical switch which turns on another switch.....

Let me know if you want the next "lesson".... we can do many, many things with relays...... they are "old" school now - but unless you want to start learning electronics and integrated circuits.... many of us simple souls will continue to use them for as long as they are available......

sorry for the long post.... aaarrggghhhh, relays - why do people shudder when they are really just so simple....

frats,
Rosco

[strangenuts]

Thanks again Rosco, I think it's safe to say youy answered my question and then some. Great effort. You must love getting a new car just so you can go to work on it's electrics from stock standard. I talked to my sparky this morning and he recommended an aux batt in the tray, not liking them under the bonnet at all.
In regards to batteries under the bonnet and the temperatures they live in, the main battery being right up the front of the engine bay, it would be the coolest location and then it's performance less affected than an aux in the rear corner would it not?

[Qwerty]

In regards to batteries under the bonnet and the temperatures they live in, the main battery being right up the front of the engine bay, it would be the coolest location and then it's performance less affected than an aux in the rear corner would it not?

Yep, you'd be right. My aux battery cops a LOT of heat that my starter doesn't. Just a compromise i've had to make because I didn't want it anywhere else. Am currently toying with some heat shielding actually ... just for good measure.

I did have to replace my original AUX battery (115ah wet lead acid) , primarily as it had crap caps on it that resulted in a lot of leakage (especially with rough 4wd'ing), i neglected it and hadnt checked water levels, then found it half-dry ... which means I neglected to keep an eye on the levels and it died due to my neglect. I think heat would contribute to it.

So now I have a maint free 105ah (some form of calcium lead acid) all-rounder ... I'll see how this goes over the next year.

Any battery that's subjected to a LOT of use (i do a LOT of discharging and re-charging, and trips away every 2nd weekend, up and down hot beaches at low speeds, running fridges, stereos, 2 amplifiers, and camp lighting through the night, and charging the next day = a lot of battery stress) ... is going to have a shortened life.

That said, my own auto sparky, and most of my mates have them in engine bay. One mate has it in his canopy under a false floor.

I didnt want my battery in my sleeping area, and I have a tub so there wasn't really any other suitable location.

If I start killing batteries, I'll have to rethink situation, but mostly happy compromise with battery being in a high stress environment.

ENgine bay isn't a big no no, but it's not desireable if you have better options...

[Alby]

Great write up Rosco, well done

[rosco01]

Strangenuts - will "add" just one more pin and what it can do at the end of this post.
Yes, always an adventure with a new vehicle - but, as stated earlier - I didn't go to the same degree of attention with the cruiser that I did with the HIlux.... the cruiser is pretty much simpified - and almost to the post I wrote on relays.... the other pin gives you everything you'll need .... later.

Batteries.... hmmmm.... yes - for many, many years - manufacturers fitted them in the engine bay - logic and economical were the guidelines..... logic - because everything "engine" was under there - economical.. because it avoided long, heavy cabling - and time consumption when manufacturing vehicles...
The V12 Jag was the first to actually fit a cooling fan on the battery box.... there was just so much "stuff" in the bay - originally batteries were getting "cooked"... using lots of electrolyte.... and "letting the show down, old chap"....

In the past ten years or so - Oz makers have been fitting batteries in the rear of the vehicle - and using heavy cabling.... Commodore just to name one...... but take a peek at how much more is under the bonnet of a Commodore compared with an old grey motor six..... you could hold a party under the bonnet of an EK......

Batteries in the engine bay of a modern vehicle (pollution equip, ECU componentry, intercoolers etc. etc) are still predominant.... and it is OK to fit them there.... but - take a close look at where the manufacturer fits them.... usually way up front and in some form of cool air stream - away from the main heat sources......
In the Hilux - an aux battery is usually fitted at the rear of the l/hs - in front of the firewall...... there is considerably a lot more heat there than at the front... but there isn't any room ... all those "good" spots are used by other things which prefer cool air... radiator - just to name one.... and rightly so....
As stated - the aux batt can be fitted - but it should be monitored frequently.. especially when cycled heavily and subjected to a lot of "sloshing" around......
Mounting one at the rear provides a lot of benefits - but is much more expensive and demands considerable "thought" and security...... under the tray is ok... but bear in mind - the chassis bounces around an awful lot more than the cab.... so, it might also be pertinent to build in some "insulation".. something which will take "shock" out of your rock climbing and serious pounding - you won't feel as much because the cabin is mounted on rubber pads.....but a heavy battery banging up and down/side to side on an almost rigid chassis will.......

Now, strangenuts (and anyone else who wants just a bit more to the previous "lesson")...

The "theory" part of our project before we go to the test bench to do the prac...

We used the 4 pin relay for simplicity... lets add another pin and see what it can be used for... .the 5 pin relay.
When you look under the relay at the pins - you'll notice it has the additional one in the centre of the other 4 - that is 87A - again, the number is forever.....

This pin number 87A (and is numbered that because it is an optional addition to 87 as previous) provides one more contact to the "switch" - but to make use of it, we have to change a couple of things........

Lets now make pin 30 (the other side of the '"switch" from 87 previously) the output to our light - this is going to be the pin which will always be connected to the positive light bulb....... and pin 87 the positive supply from the battery.......

So far - the relay is going to work exactly as before - 85 and 86 will do the switching - 87 and 30 will be the switch - your light will still come on and go off... nothing changed.

But - lets get another battery and connect a lead from the positive terminal to pin 87A.

So, we have one relay, two batteries and one light ..... interesting, where can Rosco be going with this...? high/low beam?... nup - headlights/parkers?.... nup... indicators?.. nup...... better, much better than that......

Now the fun.... go to your test bench again.... put the batteries side by side and connect up the NEGATIVE leads TOGETHER .....
You can't "hurt" batteries connecting only the NEGATIVES together.... nothing happens... - but this is exactly what goes on when you fit an Auxilary battery to your Hilux.... you CAN simply join all batteries using the body.... but -

It is far better (and I would suggest/instruct all to do this) to add an equal sized negative cable AS WELL AS the positive to any aux battery you fit AND make sure it is connected soundly to your body .... strange things start to happen (and I won't elaborate here) when the connections through the body cannot keep up with power demands..... they go looking for "other" ways to get back to the battery.... you've all seen brake lights go dim when blinkers flash... same sort of deal - we won't go there at the moment.... just make sure you run NEGATIVE leads as well - and your life will be a lot easier.....


Back to the bench experiment.....
We have both battery negatives joined together.
Connect the negative lead from the battery to pin 86.
Connect the negative lead from the battery to the body of the light globe.
Connect the positive lead from the original battery to pin 87.
Connect the positive lead of your light globe to pin 30.

We now want the previous lead from pin 85 connected to the relay, but not to the battery - as before.
We ALSO want this new lead from pin 87A connected to the relay but not to the new battery.

We now have everthing connected EXCEPT the original lead we used to turn on the switch AND this new mysterious lead connected to 87A......

Smoke and mirrors folk - all about to ppffffft and create magic.......

Touch the original positive lead from pin 85 to your original battery.... voila! - the relay goes "clunk" and the light turns on....... same as before.
Now remove it - the relay goes "clunk" and the light goes off.... same as before......

Now - touch the new lead to the NEW battery..... no "clunk"... but the light turns on.... remove it - no "clunk" and the light goes off........ "how is it so, young fella?".... from a previous life....

This new use of pin 87A and its second battery - supplies power to the light globe at all times except when the "switch" gets power from the original battery - our first experiement.

When the "switch" gets power from the original battery - pin 87A gets disconnected from the second battery - so, it's either one battery or the other......... mystery solved.. I hope?

OK - and this is exactly what you were mystified with in my original post, Strangenuts - when I spoke of a "load change-over relay"....... this is EXACTLY what you have just created.......

A way to supply power to something using two batteries - from one in "auxilary" use - and one in "normal" use.......

The very simple way to put this to work for you - is just to connect the "switching" positive lead (pin 85) to something which only comes on when you turn your key to ACC or IGN....... cigarette lighter lead etc.

When the relay gets power from that key operated ACC supply - it connects the power supply from your crank (engine bay) battery to whatever.... mainly the fridge is what this is used for.... but the uses are almost endless... cameras, lights etc. etc. your imagination is the only limit.....

When you turn off the key - the power to pin 85 is lost, the connection in the relay "switch" from the crank battery to the fridge is disconnected.
At the same time, the connection from the auxiliary battery to the fridge takes over (this new miraculous pin 87A) and keeps the fridge running....... and you will have every confidence you can return to the truck and start it....

I know what you're thinking.... already - "so, smarty pants - why don't the two batteries "join" up when the key is on?" - we didn't "do" that part of the experiment.....
Forgot - sorry.......

We'll do it now - and you will want to have "exceptional" eyes to "see" it happen......

Connect securely your new lead from pin 87A to the second battery - of course the light will now be on.....
Now touch the loose lead from pin 85 to the original battery positive ....... "clunk"... the light is still on - and you'll be a lot better than I if you can "see" any flicker.... it is almost instantaneous...... let the lead go - again "clunk" - how good are your "eyes"....?
This is a "load" chang-over... one battery OR the other - not "both"......

You can have one or the other - either but not both - unless you make "wrong" connections......

To prevent the whole thing working at the same time - do NOT connect pin 87A to your original battery OR pin 85 to your second battery..... it will defeat the whole purpose of this change-over relay.... if you think on it a bit, you'll realise why things aren't switching on or switching off......

Pin 87 is the supply from your crank battery, 87A is the supply from the second battery.
Pin 85 from your ACC (cigarette lighter).
Pin 30 to your fridge positive input.
Pin 86 to battery negative (usually your chassis "earth").
Your fridge negative lead to battery negative (again chassis earth - but preferably to the negative lead you are now going to fit).

And... there's more...... the "clever" way the above is done - means that when the fridge is running from the Aux battery - the relay is not using any power itself.... the "switching" part of the relay is "off" - only when we turn the key to ACC... does it turn "on" and use a bit of power..... but the engine alternator will also be running and charge the crank battery... no issue.

One thing everyone should be aware of using the above - is that your crank battery will be supplying power to fridge whenever the key is in ACC..... if the engine is not running - the crank battery will be getting drained.
We can fit a switch in the lead from the ACC (cigarette lighter) to pin 85 ... but they are usually not worth the trouble..... we tend to forget them being turned off - and the beer gets warm..... just be aware that your new load change-over relay will use crank battery power when the key is in ACC.......

Always connect battery negatives to your chassis (earth) - and ALWAYS use the same size cable for these earths as the positive power cables.

Hope this puts "paid" to the load change-over mystery, Strangenuts.....?

We can do "more"... Strangenuts..... relays can be "switched" (driven is the term often used) by connecting the positive leads permanently and using "earth" (pin 86) to switch the on/off..... just like your door light works... power is always there - but the switch in the door button makes the connection to "earth" and the relay "switches" on/off...... if you want some of this, ask.. and I'll put a couple of lines like the above and previous together.....

frats,
Rosco

[Qwerty]

I'd rather keep my loads assigned permanently as they are.

On the heat topic, I've just ordered this : http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230686607619 ... 1439.l2649

Will see if i can wrap my aux and DC charger to shield from engine heat.

[Qwerty]

Something I've done tonight to heat proof the aux battery a little





Glass Matt heat shielding rated to 550celcius


** Sent from smartphone using Tapatalk, excuse fat fingers on small keyboard. **

[rosco01]

Hi Qwerty,
your work is impressive - can I make just one suggestion?
Is there some way that you can make an opening both at the front and rear of this matting?.
Whilst the thermal sheeting will most definitely reduce radiant heat - the battery and RedArc require some form of cool air flow to extract heat build up in both components. RedArc will generate its own heat whilst operating - the battery will accumulate heat from the air temperature in the engine bay.
My suggestion would be to install some form of small flexible ducting from behind the sheilded (out of weather) section of the grille. Most vehicle manufacturers use this for demister operation.
If you do consider my option to fit this, I would further suggest an opening/s at the rear of the sheilding as well - and larger than the opening at the entry...... this needs to be larger or in multiple or the comparments will pressurise somewhat and restrict air-flow...

Again, great work - and foresight..

frats,
Rosco

[Qwerty]

Nah there's no practical way to have air flow under the heat shielding. It's like a skin.

While it might Retain a bit more of its own heat when charging, that hopefully won't come close to the heat it rejects from engine that it was previously copping.

The v6 engine bay gets seriously hot ... Tons of radiant heat.

That's my gamble anyway!

The battery is not covered directly , the shielding is on the battery tray , there is existing air gap between battery and tray, so really no difference in this regard

Im going to rmeove the piece I put across front of battery itself (facing bow of car)... as that was a good airflow in section.

The redarc really is the only question mark for me.

THis is the product : http://www.fibreglassmesh.co.uk/wp-cont ... Shield.pdf




** Sent from smartphone using Tapatalk, excuse fat fingers on small keyboard. **

[rosco01]

ok Qwerty - guess you'll just have to monitor it a bit for a while... does the RedArc unit have an overtemperature cut-out?... hope so - this will be your best guide as to whether it's reaching critical temps...

If you can, I would still suggest making some holes in the firewall side of the battery shield.... to let air flow through.... you should be well and truly over any concern after you open up in/out ports around the battery - the radiant heat will not be an issue - as it radiates in line from the heat source.... it's the "cavity" bay temps which might get too hight for RedArc and the aux battery...

Please keep me informed as you progress.... good plan... and some clever thinking, Qwerty....

frats,
Rosco

[Qwerty]

firewall side is open air, as is front of car ... heaps of air (well as much as can be for at back of engine bay) flows

Yep the redarc does cut out at high temps, ive only seen it do it once ... when idling around in dunes on a reallly hot day with a lot of engine work.

But even so, the V6 bay is a very very hot one ... so knocking out as much radiant heat (particularly on the battery itself).

If the redarc starts tripping out more often then I'll know the wrapping of heat shield is counter productive (in which case i might leave redarc exposed but leave shielding on the side of battery tray.

[rosco01]

Yes Qwerty - that all makes sense....
If your RedArc does start complaining - the shield you have fitted between the heat source and unit would be best left in situ... is there a cooling fan in the unit - and if so, have you left the intake and exhaust ports open?

Just thinking this through without being able to look at it...

frats,
Rosco

[Qwerty]

nah no cooling fan ...just heat sinks on it

I was also toying with some sort of metal shield that i could pop rivet around it, to allow a gap of air between the naked metal of the redarc and the heat shielding,,, but now we're just getting silly!

plus i dropped the battery on my foot doing the job at 11pm at night , tired and with a head torch in the driveway, so not pullin battery out again any time soon!

[john253a]

http://www.mechman.com/
had some mates buy from them, good quality and large verity of amp options
they do up to 450amp in a single alt,
havent inquired about the hilux as it an American site, and i sold my hilux

[white_hilux]

well im pretty sure that my alternator has had it.

just doing some general checking under the bonnet yesterday and noticed that my battery (1 month old) is indicating that it needed to be recharged which i thought was weird. So i got the multimeter out and found that there was only 12.03 volts in the battery......

I turned the car on to see what the alternator was putting out and it was only producing 11.95 volts which isnt good at all. The only thing that it charging my battery by the looks of it is the solar panel on top of my canopy so I will get it checked by an autoelectrician this week before going to Landcruiser Park.

More bloody money!!!!!

[GeeTee]

wow my head is spinning after reading a bit of this thread... all I have is a $50 three-way (four if you count 'off') rotary switch and a circuit breaker to charge my twin batteries and run a stereo/CD, allow parallel-ing for winching, power my fridges, charge a camper trailer house battery, operate a 12V water pump, provide kitchen and campground lighting, give me a 12V invertor and charging of two phones and three rechargeble torches


White_Hilux, is your multimeter accurate? I doubt 12.0V would start your car..?

[Walt]

I want to suggest you about your problem i had this problem mu suggestion is that Try it your self with a multimeter and see what readings you get, a battery needs 14 to15 volts to charge and a float voltage of 13.6 to 14 volts to bring a battery to 100% SOC ((state of charge) these values can vary due to brand and type of battery used but not capacity.This is helpful for your car and get good result after one month.

[Sting]

I want to install dual batteries under the tray of my Hilux. I want to charge them both from the alternator in parallel, but I want to use them in series.
So charge from 12v and load them with 24v.

I am wondering what I can use to switch the installation automatically.

I am an industrial electrician, not automotive, so would love a bit of help.

[2007Lux]

nah no cooling fan ...just heat sinks on it

I was also toying with some sort of metal shield that i could pop rivet around it, to allow a gap of air between the naked metal of the redarc and the heat shielding,,, but now we're just getting silly!

plus i dropped the battery on my foot doing the job at 11pm at night , tired and with a head torch in the driveway, so not pullin battery out again any time soon!

Hey Qwerty,
I've mounted my BCDC between the main battery and the sidewall of the engine bay. I had to remove the main battery in order to get it in there plus drill two holes to mount the unit. I know it would be a hassle to change all your wiring around but it's just an idea for you. You can still see the charging status as you mount the unit facing up.
Later
2007Lux

[FTEROL]

Had a similar rattle/click-clack coming from lower engine area( hot & cold). Because truck is still under 3 months statuary warranty, I had dealer check/repair noise twice. Both times idler bearings were replaced. Third time I took it back & they replaced the alternator with factory parts. All seems to be ok now (fingers crossed).