Alternator

[olcoolone]

All battery's will charge OK from a low battery voltage, lead acid battery's will start to sulphate earlier then Gel and AGM types if run at low voltage for extended periods.

One thing to remember is all automotive battery's are lead acid types, what changes is the way they are constructed, wet cell types like you starting battery is the oldest and most common type and they come in starting and deep cycle, the next one is a Gel battery and they come in starter and deep cycle, the next one is the AGM (Absorbent Glass Mat) that only comes in deep cycle due to the weight, expense of manufacturing and they don't like rapid discharge or recharge due to the valve system they use and the last one is calcium, these battery's are only used for starting and offer extremely high discharge current with rapid recharge in a small package but they are the hardest to recharge... flatten a calcium and the only way to charge it correctly is with a calcium battery charger or smart charger.

There are no real deep cycle battery's produced for automotive use.

Any lead acid battery will accept an in rush of current of up to 200 amps, battery's are like children...put heaps of food in front of them and they will eat it all very quickly, expand, feel sick, spew all the food up and have a shorter life span....battery's will accept what ever current or voltage is given to them and if you put too much in they will expand, feel sick (hot), spew all the acid out (the wet stuff you see on top of battery's) and have a shorter life span.

In automotive and house battery's there are no golden eggs, they are all the same and there are pros and cons for all battery's.

The battery of the future will be silicon anode Li-Ion nanowire type (big word) , they are in development at the moment and they will change the way of battery use.

I would say the article was written by someone who knew very little about battery's and charging.

There is a lot to learn about it and I'm still learning.

[rodw]

Your Hilux will charge it to about 600% SOC and a DC-Dc charger will help you heaps.

You did mean 60% Olcolone didn't you?

I would say the article was written by someone who knew very little about battery's and charging.

That was my thoughts too. Maybe the guy did know his stuff but the editor cut his article to shreds. I've had a newspaper do that to me after asking for 200 words. After they cut it, it made sound like I was a blithering idiot.

Keep learning olcolone, this thread has been the most informative article I have read about batteries and charging them and most of it comes from you mate! (Although banshee buzz has add some good stuff too!)

[KClux]

Cheers olcoolone, glad u put me on the straight there. Pretty annoying about that article but thanks for clearing it all up.

[olcoolone]

Finally fitter a RedArc BCDC-1220 DC-DC battery charger to the Hilux today.

It seems to make a big difference the the Hilux's standard charging system.

Before it was fitted with the starter and aux batteries the Hilux would start off on 14.2v for about 10 to 20 minutes and then tapper down to about 13.2v.

After fitting the RedArc the starter battery started at 14.5v for about 10 minutes and then tapped down to 14.1v and stayed there, the aux battery was receiving 14.5v in both boost and absorption mode and stayed there, we didn't see it switch to float.

Over the last 6 months we have sold a few DC-DC charges but like always we have never been given the time to do any long term testing, especially on the Hilux's.

We have done plenty of testing on Hilux's with a standard charge system and this is how we found the short fall.

We took one of the guys from RedArc out to tea the other night and even though we did training for the BCDC about 3 months ago it was a good chance for some one on one.

The next day we had to pick up some advertising gear from RedArc HQ for an up and coming promo we are doing, this gave use to opportunity to get a guided tour of there premises.

Very swish and high tech place with top notch work ethics, it puts some good hotels to shame.

One thing what surprised me was they have their own environmental chamber in their R&D department for testing their gear in all conditions over long extended periods.

Another interesting thing is the only thing they outsource is the cutting of the wire and the extruded heat sinks, everything else is in house except for components....the cutting of the wire is done in Victoria and the heat sinks (they own the design and tooling) is done locally.

And you would be surprised who they make voltage conversion gear for from around the world.

We leave Tuesday morning for a 10 day trip into the Simpson Desert with some research scientist from Melbourne Uni....collecting moss, Will have plenty of time to test the RedArc and I will keep you's informed of the outcome.

[rodw]

Sounds good mate, maybe you could ask Redarc for an evaluaton unit to fit to my rig just to make sure it is suited to QLD conditions as well as SA. I am amazed, I would never have thought you'd find moss in the desert, Make sure you post some pics of said moss when found...

[Steve9R]

The battery of the future will be silicon anode Li-Ion nanowire type (big word) , they are in development at the moment and they will change the way of battery use.

what about super-caps ? I still reckon there is huge potential there if they can minaturize them... dont you think ?

[Alby]

We leave Tuesday morning for a 10 day trip into the Simpson Desert with some research scientist from Melbourne Uni....collecting moss, Will have plenty of time to test the RedArc and I will keep you's informed of the outcome.

I need to sort out my battery setup so look forward to seeing how the redarc performs,

Just a tip for your scientist friend..........don't look for moss on a rolling stone .

[olcoolone]

We leave Tuesday morning for a 10 day trip into the Simpson Desert with some research scientist from Melbourne Uni....collecting moss, Will have plenty of time to test the RedArc and I will keep you's informed of the outcome.

I need to sort out my battery setup so look forward to seeing how the redarc performs,

Just a tip for your scientist friend..........don't look for moss on a rolling stone .

Don't know about scientist friend.....

Hopefully there are nice people, we have meet some other research scientists on our travels before and most of them are very _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ....you get the drift LOL.

I'm sure it will be a good trip.

[olcoolone]

Rod I can sell you one .

Yes I had a laugh when I found out what they wanted to find, it appears where we are going is the only place in Australia that has this type of moss.

A remote tour operator out of Alice Springs who we know is taking them and we got an invite to meet them a Dalhousie Springs on Wednesday to tag along through the Simpson.

Steve9R, super caps will be good for short burst high energy applications....there was talk a couple of years ago about them replacing batteries in the future.

I think the problem they had was creating the energy to charge them.

Really a Cap is just like a battery.

[marlinman]

gday olcoolone

just resurrecting this thread, wondering what the outcome was on the test trip in regards to the redarc system?? did it fulfill its expectations??

cheers

[rosco01]

Hi all,
my turn to resurrect the thread...
We've mounted the fridge and are now looking at an aux battery - I've done a bit of research - both here and on other forums - there would appear to be a minefield in waiting.
I've had comments from - vehicle batteries "boiling" whilst aux's are still in charge - right through to aux batteries not charging when the vehicle battery reaches float......

Olcoolone, I am placing my troth in your knowledge here - but will not hold you responsible for anything which happens to go amiss in my application.....

I am in two minds as to which unit to seek - either the RedArc BCDC 1220 or the RanOx one...
Pradopoint seem to have a current thread running with the RanOx unit proving satisfactory.
I note that you may still be away - testing your RedArc one - but would very much like to hear of your findings....

My concerns at present are...
If the Aux battery is engine bay mounted - does this cause concern with the SOC when this battery cools out and is put to use...?

If the Aux battery is tub mounted, I would expect that the charger/isolator should be likewise mounted to prevent voltage drop at the tub.....?

If both are tub mounted, will the isolator function operate correctly from a remote location?

Is there risk to engine management/warranty by over-voltage of the vehicle battery - if the charger/isolator demands alternator voltage to remain high whilst charging the aux battery in parallel....?

As you can easily read here, I am pretty much out of water in any of these matters.... and seek advice/clarification - I would expect others watching/reading this thread to have similar concerns....

At this point in time, I intend to run 8mm2 from my vehicle battery (fused) both pos and neg to the tub.
Then connect up to either the RedArc or RanOx unit with short connections to a tub mounted Aux battery.....

I have spent some hours reading Collyn's articles - and believe I have latched on to a vertical learning curve..... now with even greater concerns......

I was shocked to learn that "automotive" grade wiring is marked similarly to ISO - but purely for hole size.... not actual conductor....... guess there are minefields running around out there on wheels...

There are also some articles by the same author relating to fridges - yes, very much shocked indeed....... voltage drop is super critical - especially in 3-way types..... hence my questions concerning location of charger/isolator and proximity to fridge.....

I have not considered further fitting of an Anderson plug to this "system" as yet - I believe the priority of getting the little truck and it's fridge working first.... it may very well come to be that I need a further unit in the van..... via an Anderson.....
It does come with a "smart charger" - but have not found any documentation on this as yet......

I have come a long way in the past few weeks from the technology of an old '61 Holden to what is now available......but sadly believe I have a long way to go before I am comfortable in what I intend to attain......

Very much looking forward to your reply - and also from others who may be able to assist....

frats,
Rosco

[Alby]

Not my area of expertise Rosco but I know from experience that you need a much heavier cable between the batterys and alternator than what you have proposed, my research suggests a minimum 6 B&S but I have just upgrade mine to 2B&S cable (about 12mm Diametre) as the price difference was negligable and I keep hearing the bigger the better in view of less voltage drop. My existing cable was 6mm diametre and I was not getting enough amps to the rear battery to keep it properly charged.

My 2c worth

[rosco01]

Thanks Alby,
I have a few irons in the fires of this and other forums at present....

I am very quickly coming to the opinion that voltage drops off very quickly over short distances - and it may very well be that this is the case when mounting an aux battery in the tub.....and not being able to get it charged - apparently, batteries will charge only if a higher voltage is applied to them.... ie - 12 volts will not charge a 12 volt battery...
If voltage drop is a problem over distance - even sending down 13.2 v (Hilux float) over a reasonable distance will probably do precious little to charge an auxiliary battery..... this is my understanding of it at present....

I do have some very real concerns about "boiling" the vehicle battery using an isolator/charger at present - I'm still in review and taking in information on this - so cannot post anything of substance yet.....

There is a bloke in WA ... Collyn Rivers - who writes articles on many, many things - I would suggest you take a peek at what he has written on batteries, cables and their relationship with portable fridges.....

http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com ... /index.htm

I don't want to start screaming "wolf" here - but eagerly seek answers from those in the trade.....

frats,
Rosco

[rodw]

Rosco, of all of the people on the forums, I reckon that olcolone is the one who really knows his stuff. Like Alby has said, go for 2 or 3 B&S cable as per Olcolones earlier posts. I think that olcolone has nailed the low voltage issue on the diesel engines and outlined the situation and the recommended solutions. Don't confuse yourself any further.

However, here is another report on 4x4 earth from Mark Sorenson. I have met Mark and he knows his stuff! The last para about his Prado is gold. I like the idea of the waterproof Redarc rather than a Ranox under the seat...

http://www.4x4earth.com.au/forum/campin ... #post75591

Hey there Bruiser. I hear you loud and clear. We travelled all around the country over the years and i think i've tried every type of battery and charge option other than solar. Even tried wind generation. My efforts and opinion could be described below:

Dual batteries in 75 & 2 X 80 series (roof top camper) with alternator beefed up to handle 100 amps were ok but when running two fridges across the Simpson Desert they struggled and we basically had nothing after 1/3 of the way through the trip. I tried 130 amp hr deep cycle until a so called battery expert reccomended marine batteries as they also have cranking power. This was good for running the winch but hopeless for anything else.

Went to a Hilux (swags) and fitted dual batteries - again hopeless even more so as you can't get a decent size battery under the hood. We tried two 210 amp hr 6 volts in the back. Plenty of power to run shit but the batteries were so big they failed to what i was told later on was plate separation due to the corrugations etc.

Went to a Prado (tent camping) did not even consider dual batteries as i would be in the same boat as the hilux for size i could fit and these systems are just about unafordable when compared to a 1 kva generator. I brought a marine battery box for $20 and fitted numerous plugs and a small volt meter. I put a dry cell 115 amp hour deep cycle battery in the box. Went and brought a 2 stage "calibre" electronic battery charger from super cheap for $80 then did the hunting for size and brand of generator.

I decided i would never have to run an air conditioner while camping so we agreed on a 1.0 kva unit. We looked at all the small inverter ones that had some kind of reputation: Engel, Honda, Yamaha, Kypor. I spoke with campers and retailers about these and the Kypor was instantly thrown out. They look like a Honda but they are made from Taiwaneese crap and everyone i spoke to said that all the little bits were falling apart like the pull start and the casing. They are also much much noisier than any of the others around. We then looked at the Engel. It was a good solid machine and not a bad work was spoken about them as was the Honda and at the time the not as popular yamaha. All the of specs summed up in that the Yamaha was the quietest, the most economical and has a slightly larger fuel tank than all of the rest. All three were pretty much the same price except Honda was offering a $300 cash back. I brought the Yamaha. I have now had it three years and it gets used at least every three weeks. The combination of the battery in the tent with the charger and generator was amazing. We could run anything we like during the day then of an afternoon run the genny and charger for a couple of hours and it was back to almost fully charged. We travelled around the Alps for 4 weeks and had the most comfortable trip ever.

Now if your not sick of my rambling yet.........

We finally gave up the tent camping and brought a Kimberly Kamper. Great investment but later found that the AGM batteries that i got and that is 4 X 35 amp hour batteries (small so as not to have problems with plate separation) needed a minimum of 14 volt charge rate otherwise Kimberly would void the warranty on the batteries. Because i have one of these new U beaut D4D Prado's with all of the electronic crap that we all love these days i find out that the alternator on these things are lucky to put out 13.2 volts and 80 amps. Well I had already shelled out $600 for a switching unit that is used for duel battery systems and just run this down to an anderson plug. Wasn't i nice and peeved off when i find out that I didn't have enough current to open the circuit. I did a lot of swearing and then got down to some serious research and was put on to a guy called Alan Ran. He is the director of a company called "RanOx" this is a very inteligent 12 volt battery booster. It cost me another $470 and I had it delivered to Kimberly where they fitted it for me while the camper was being built. This thing has run sensors and temp probes with a million and one options and is tiny to boot. Since this fit up the agent who i brought my camper from is in the process of becomming a QLD distributor and has already fitted them to their entire hire fleet. Try this link:
RanOx DC-DC Multi-Stage Battery Booster/Charger

Since i have had my Kimberly I have actually used my generator once and that was on a 5 day camping trip to Carnarvon Gorge where i didn't move the campsite. I ran it for a total of 8 hrs behind a 20 amp smartcharger and that was it. The batteries were down to 11.8 volts when we left Carnarvon Gorge to come home to Brisbane i found that the batteries were fully charged before we even got to Towoomba.

I know i'm probably rabbiting on but I wished I could have found this info before I started so if you are setting up a camper trailer I guess my opinion is:

1. multiple small deep cycle batteries (210 amp hr) if you can fit or afford.
2. Yamaha EU1.0 genenerator
3. not larger than 20amp smart charger (geny struggles to run a 40amp)
4. RanOx DC to DC battery booster an absolute must.

I hope you didn't get bored and got some useful info from "my opinion and trials/bad experiences"

[rosco01]

thanks Rod,
I'm swamping this thread and will continue it on my "fridge slide" thread ....

I have had wires, circuits and batteries waking me up at all times through the past two nights - it's usually a good sign... means I am getting somewhere with it - at least in a position where my "simple soul" head can digest it.....

At this point in time, I am leaning towards the RanOx unit - I'm not totally convinced the "other" one offers the same degree of flexibility....

From what I have been able to glean from writings and people in the trade thus far, this particular unit will actually produce 14.5 appr. volts even thought the "float" voltage of our D4D's (and probably V6's) may fall to 13.2 v..... I am led to believe this is accomplished by using the input voltage (whatever the alternator reg decides is going to be appropriate) and "inverting" it to AC - from there it rectifies it back to DC - but at a higher voltage than the original input - clever!
Of course, by pure physics, this cannot be done 1:1 - there has to be a loss - and I believe this occurs by a greater input current to the unit to supply the inverter......

I think this is how it works.....

My other concern, (and it's my turn to "Rabbit" on here) is of course - other units may "switch" across to auxiliary charge state when the alternator produces an output - but, and it's a pretty unfounded "but" - I am also of the opinion that this may in fact "charge" both the vehicle battery and the aux - resulting in a differential between batteries - ie, overcharging the vehicle battery - the 70% charge article of Collyn is very appropriate here......
I noted with one thread above, it stated the vehicle battery voltage was higher and remained higher with another unit in situ - I'd be a bit concerned that this may not necessarily be appropriate - but I do not have any qualification or knowledge/experience to throw these thoughts up as founded fact......

I do understand that the RanOx unit is not weather proof - and it has been suggested to me to place the aux battery in the tub - with the shortest possible leads from the unit to the battery - thus, I now believe (at this point in time) I will fit
both aux battery and charger in the tub....

The burning (excuse pun) revelation thus far - is that leads of sufficient sq mm conductivity must be used - voltage drops off very quickly over short distance..... and batteries will only "charge" if the voltage is greater than their rating......
I am chasing up some 8mm2 cabling at present (both pos and neg) and may even opt for 10mm2 - I don't know what physical size these will amount to - but they will be fitted into PVC tubing and cable tied for insulation purposes.....

thanks again, Rod - that read above is priceless..... and costless.... to me, anyway.....
I think Mark Sorrenson should be applauded for posting this up - it certainly has enlightened me to the fact that the output of our alternators (smart alternators) is designed for the vehicle - not auxiliaries.......

Will continue this discussion on my fridge slide thread - for anyone who wants to follow/join in.....

thanks Rod,

frats,
Rosco

[Twisty]

99% sure I will be getting a Redarc BCDC-1220 for mine this week.

Found this thread of one being installed in a Prado.
http://www.pradopoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&p=97877

As that thread mentions, Ashdown Ingram have them on sale at the moment for $360ish....Local prices I've got so far has been $470-$500......I'm getting mine for trade price through Ashdown but, which is a fair bit cheaper again .

http://www.ashdowningram.com.au/

[rodw]

thanks Rod,
I am chasing up some 8mm2 cabling at present (both pos and neg) and may even opt for 10mm2 - I don't know what physical size these will amount to -

frats,
Rosco

rosco, that is nowhere big enough. Specify the cable in the B&S range (either B&S 2 or 3). B&S 3 is about 20-25 mm2. That is where you need to be. Did Collyn Rivers have the formulas there to calculate voltage loss? This is one of his article here:
http://www.fridge-and-solar.net/wire.html

Do the sums with say 6 metres of cable length and 50 amps so you have some leeway for your trailer power connection.

Current ratings provided with 12/24 volt cable are always of this nature. To determine cable size you must know:
1. The total conductor length,
2. The current that the cable will carry,
3. The permissible voltage drop (0.36 volts is fine for most 12 volt purposes, 0.72 for 24 volts).
From that it is possible to work out conductor size in sq mm as follows.
Length in metres x current in amps x 0.017/conductor size in sq mm = voltage drop.

eg. (6 x 50 x 0.017)/ y = 0.36
where y = cable size in mm2
rearrange it to get:
(6 x 50 x 0.017)/ 0.36 = y
y = 14.16 mm2
B&S 6 = 13.3 mm2 - Marginal
B&S 5 = 16.8 mm2 - Voltage loss target met.

If you want to keep the voltage loss to 0.2 volts you need 25 mm2 cable. The closest to this is B&S3 which is 26.7mm
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge

Remember you have to get the current back to your caravan yet! Use B&S 2 or 3!

[rosco01]

Thanks again, Rod....
yes - just done the "reckie" and finally got to look at what 8mm2 is - too thin, for sure....!
I was of the opinion that (as one would think....8mm across) that the "conductor) in 8mm2 was about 5 - 6 mm across - it isn't anywhere near it.....

I will most likely go as far up as what will pass through 12 mm PVC tubing - I expect this to be up around your standard B&S 3 or if I can 2....
I'm not up to speed with B&S - people I have been communicating with on other forums have led me to mm2 - I don't understand the equation relativety to B&S (whatever)... but believe it is an accepted electrical standard of similar lineal equivalent to AWG.....?

Early stages yet, Rod - lots more to do before I actually go out and purchase/order some.....

I am contemplating a "junction" box for the engine bay - something like a "bus-bar" with a number of connecting tappings.
Fitted to engine bay side on a rubber mount and covered.... have seen something which can be made suitable in an trade electrical outlet - clear "smoked" cover and a brass bus with around four tappings at 16mm2 and four at 20mm2....

thanks again - more work to be done... will keep you posted..

frats,
Rosco

[rosco01]

Yes Rod,
a little more research this afternoon - as it turns out, RanOx (Alan Ransley & Alan Oxenbould) have two outlets/factories in Vic - one right here where I live in Lilydale - I have emailed them and await an appointment.....

I don't know if you have read the article at the link below - but continuing with our B&S/mm2 application - I read in their article that a minimum of 6 B&S or 13mm2 is the absolute - or reduced performance/charging will result.... there is no mention of length of cable/leads - but reference is made to use in caravan/trailer applications....
They also specify their testis using an alternator output voltage of 13.8 - some of the questions I have "tagged" for clarification and implications to my application.....

I remain committed to using as heavy gauge multi-strand wire that I can fit into the 12 mm PVC tubing (pos & neg) and expect this will probably be very much greater than their stated minimum..... I appreciate your suggestion to use B&S2 - and will if it will fit into the tubing - but I believe the smaller B&S 3 will suffice if it doesn't - there is no such animal as a little too much when it comes into play with voltage drop over distance..... I have yet to track down suitable wiring - my investigation this morning was purely co-incidental.....

I am now becoming a little more comfortable with the implications and requirements for this project....

I the article - it does also make mention of modern CR diesel engines with ECU controlled alternators..... worth reading..

this is the link -

http://www.ranox.com.au/473.html

frats,
Rosco

[rodw]

Rosco, I have done something similar to the BUS bar but I have done it in the rear. I have not had time to take pics,I used a $7 cutting board which I cut down to suit, a piece of 20mm Aluminium bar and some 8 mm bolts. To insulate the bolts at the rear, I used the hole for the cutting board handle which the bolts fitted into amd put another piece of cutting board over the bolt heads it and screwed it all onto the main board. To insulate the front of the terminals, I had a small Jaycar Jiffy box that had tabs for mounting screws laying round. I threw away the lid and screwed it to the board to cover the bolts and cut out the bottom side away for the cables to enter. Currently, I am still using the ARB cabling I started with to the rear. Once I pull it out to add the 2 B&S cable, I will take some pics of it. I will use a 100 amp megafuse at the front. I tried the B&S 2 cable in 12mm hose and it was too tight. Where the cables enter the tub, I drilled a hole with a step saw and added a 25 mm rubber grommet I got from Ideal Electrical.

I am not sure if you will need a big distibution board at the front that is big enough to handle battery cable sized leads. the various bolts on the terminals may be enough. I have added two of my fuse box distribution thingies (see early in my buildup) in the engine bay, one near the battery and another one on some 8 B&S cable on the other side for the compressor and pressure pump. I have another one in the rear on the cutting board and once I finish it all off, I will remove 2 circuits from the front fuse box and rewire them to the one in the rear.

Once it is all finished, I was envisaging I would use one of my 4 bolts for power inlet, one for the fuse box, one for an inverter and one for an Anderson Plug for future trailer and/or solar charging.