lpg

[toyboata]

There's no liquid injection systems for diesel engines, only vapour. They aren't sequential either......well there is 1 or 2 sequential vapour injection systems to suit diesel engines but they arent applicable to small engines like in our Hilux, they are intended for large engines in prime movers etc. and they actually turn the fuel down and substitue up to 30% of the diesel with LPG...I don't like this idea very much because if the LPG system fails and it's still pulling out 30% of the diesel then ur gonna have some expensive engine issues.
The systems we fit to diesels inject the LPG as a vapour, and only inject a small amount on top of the diesel, only when the turbo is boosting beyond 4-5psi as well. This increases the octane of the diesel and increases the efficient burn of fuel from 75% up to 98%, thus resulting in more torque, power and economy. The vapour withdrawal systems simply suck the vapours from the top space inside the tank and inject the LPG pre turbo, these systems do not suffer from any contamination issues. There are other systems that use the liquid LPG from the tank and convert to vapour inside a converter/heat exchanger and then inject at 10psi above boost pressure, after the turbo. These have some benefit but also do suffer from some contamination issues ie. blocked injector....but this can be prevented with use of an inline vapour filter.
These systems are all very good and they operate independently from the engine's fuel system so if the LPG system fails then it simply doesn't work, no harm done to the engine. Also the LPG keeps the engine much cleaner because almost all of the diesel is burnt compared to only 75% without the LPG, resulting in less carbon deposits and hydrocarbon blow-by, which is the main contaminator of engine oil.
The biggest winner when you do this conversion is TORQUE and ECONOMY and it's especially great if you do a lot of towing. With one system we fitted on a completely standard 2008 Hilux with D4D the diesel economy increased by about 200km per tank, using about $8 worth of LPG.
PM me if you want to know any more, happy to help

[Shaker]

The systems we fit to diesels inject the LPG as a vapour, and only inject a small amount on top of the diesel, only when the turbo is boosting beyond 4-5psi as well. This increases the octane of the diesel and increases the efficient burn of fuel from 75% up to 98%, thus resulting in more torque, power and economy. The vapour withdrawal systems simply suck the vapours from the top space inside the tank and inject the LPG pre turbo, these systems do not suffer from any contamination issues.

Thanks for the info Toyboata. I had contacted a couple of Toyota mechanics in regards to warranty issue regarding these systems some time ago now. They were not sure of the newer sequential systems and if they could blame valve burnout on something like this, then they more than likely would. Has there been any conclusive tests running sequential LPG vapor injection by monitoring EGTs and engine temps?

If these temps were raised at all, the Plasmaman aftermarket water to air intercooler may make a difference when he starts knocking them up after the prototype?

The fuel savings would be incredible if we were assured that these systems are safe on the engine and they were more tried, proven and tested. It all can't happen quick enough though.

Marjac do these systems in Queensland. I have also spoken to them, They say they have done some diesel Hiluxes but they are naturally out to sell a product too. http://www.marjac.biz/go/lpg-gas if you scroll down this page that's what their using. I note they say, "You will enjoy huge savings each year and to compliment that saving - your vehicles will have the extra added benefit of Duel fuel - thus allowing you to cover a greater range."

As I understand it, the LPG tanks are small and 'tuned' to use a full tank of LPG to a full tank of diesel. I think the same applies to petrol/LPG mix as well. You fill both tanks up when fuel up. If the LPG runs out, it's no problem as the vehicle keeps running on what fuel is left and mixture is continued to be properly maintained by the engine's management computer.

Shaker.

[Shaker]

Bump?

[muznbree]

As an LPG installer i can recommend for anyone interested, newest generation liquid LPG injection. Far superior to SVI/vapour injection systems. Direct liquid LPG injection, no converter, no contamination issues which we have a lot of with any vapour system, NO POWER LOSS.....

Yeah i asked about liquid injection in WA when i got mine, but it was so new that no-one was really doing it here. I only had a month to get something in before the rebate in WA went from $3000 to $1750 so i had to go vapor. Also, I got told that there were issues depending on the mix of LPG you got (because propane and butane have different expansion rates). I dont notice the power difference with vapor at all, and torque is still excellent.

[toyboata]

Shaker.....with the diesel LPG injection there are no valve seat issues as there are with petrol to LPG conversions. In a petrol engine without hardened valve seats, the petrol is injected at the manifold/head ports and acts as a lubricant on the valves and seats as it passes over them and because you are running on only LPG when u convert them, the LPG is dry and does not lubricate the seats at all, thus resulting in seat recession. With diesel LPG injection you are still running on the exact same amount of diesel, and on the D4D it is direct injection anyway, direct into the combustion chamber, rather than passing over the valves and seats like with port injection, so valve seat recession is not an issue.
With correct tuning of the system, paying attention to egt's, there should be no issues. Overfuelling causing knocking/detonation can be an issue but again will not be with correct tuning.
Warranty by Toyota or any other carmaker is a hard one, but like with most things they could only void warranty on damage proven to be caused by the LPG system....not void your warranty just for having the system fitted.
Most LPG injection systems for diesels come with an extended engine warranty anyway which will cover up to $15,000 worth of engine damage as well as breakdowns due the LPG system.
Depending on how we tune them, either for best power or best economy, a 30lt LPG tank should last for between 90-120lt diesel.
The petrol injection has a 10lt fuel cell which should last an average 75lt tank of diesel.

[toyboata]

Yeah i asked about liquid injection in WA when i got mine, but it was so new that no-one was really doing it here. I only had a month to get something in before the rebate in WA went from $3000 to $1750 so i had to go vapor. Also, I got told that there were issues depending on the mix of LPG you got (because propane and butane have different expansion rates).

The liquid system is being fitted here in Vic to many vehicles now, we have installed a few JTG systems but the Orbital system is now being developed for more and more vehicles and i forgot to check today but im pretty sure they have a kit now for the current model V6 Hilux.
The JTG is excellent, but the Orbital system is even better, much more precise and better engineered.
It also has correctors in the system and can determine the blend of propane/butane being used and makes adjustments accordingly to counter the different expansion rates of these two gases. I have recently attended a lengthy info and training seminar on the Orbital system and can confidently say that it is an impressive and superior system. They have a federal government funded development facility in WA and engineer all systems specifically for each vehicle, meeting the strictest ADR's for each vehicle. Most other manufacturers only tune their systems to meet an IM240 test which is not as stringent as the lastest applicable ADR's for LPG fuelled vehicles.

[Shaker]

Thanks for the info reply Toyboata. This forum needs people like yourself. It's likely that I will have a sequential system fitted as i like the idea of a cleaner running engine and more fuel tank range and economy, rather than having the also expensive to run long range tank, but will carry a couple of jerry cans for long trips all the same. I'm not bothered if I run out of gas whilst out in the middle of whoop whoop, as I had already benefited from the range and economy getting there. If I were in Victoria, I would come and see you Toyboata, but I would blow my rebate out the exhaust going out of my way from Queensland.

Anyone reading this and considering having these systems fitted, go see Toyboata. I would give any decent bloke my business especially when they offer free information and help and know what their talking about and have experience to back them. Same applies to the guy I bought my canopy off (can't put a name due to forum business subscriber/distributor conflicting interest.) He was known by my brother in-law, who had his son as an apprentice, was fair dinkum, showed me alternatives rather than have me mindset on just one brand as he felt obliged to do so and they don't just sell one product. He looked after me with prices. I'd go to him again if I need anything. That's how it all goes round. Word of mouth and good people relations brings a lot of business through the door.

Shaker.

[scratcha]

Dragging up an older topic, Toybota, is the orbital system a goer yet? im keen for a look at converting my bus, the lift, bars, battery 31's have taken a toll on the old hip pocket.
I figure i'll be keeping it for a while too.

And other forumites feel free to add your two bobs worth.

[toyboata]

Just noticed this old topic dragged up again. Orbital still don't have a kit for the Hilux, only JTG if u want liquid injection, at a cost of about $5300 before rebate.
There is a wide variety of excellent vapor injection systems though, ranging in price from $3800 - $4400 before rebate.

[toyboata]

Bump on this thread.
Anyone with a V6 or 4cyl wanting LPG is in for a treat.
PRINS VSI is the world leader in sequential LPG vapor injection and I can now offer this system at an extremely competitive price, even cheaper than some real rubbish systems that are out there.

As the JTG system is the only liquid injection kit in the market, the small benefits of it vs vapor injection really are outweighed by its high cost.

PRINS VSI is by far the best system out there and when fitted will retain the full performance of that of petrol whilst returning very good economy figures.

We used to fit these for $4500 but now I can fit this system for nwehilux.net members for only $3950 before rebate with a 63lt donut tank in place of the spare, or considerably cheaper using a standard LPG cylinder.

4 cylinder vehicles start from $3400.

Anyone interested can pm me or check ultimategas.com.au for contact details.

Also stay tuned to this thread as there will HOPEFULLY be some very exciting developments as far as liquid LPG injection for DIESEL!
Getting this system to Oz is in the works but I can tell you it's also from PRINS and it's called DIESELBLEND.

The basics are that the diesel is substituted by up to 40% by liquid LPG which is mixed with the diesel in the injector lines.
An associate has driven a 200 series in Europe with the system fitted and said it was incredible!
He's persisting with PRINS development techs in the Netherlands to get the system here and the Hilux D4D should be the first vehicle that they have in mind after the cruiser.

[Qwerty]

I thought vapor systems were basically rubbish ?

[toyboata]

I thought vapor systems were basically rubbish ?

On an engine such as the 4.0 Toyota V6 a standard vapor/mixer system is rubbish, but this is direct vapor injection I'm talking bout.
There are cheap and nasty systems out there that are basically rubbish but there are some excellent ones like the PRINS VSI system.
Just the quality of its components and the materials they're made from are that much better than the competition.
The system is a slave to the original engine management system with fully automatic operation. They start every time on petrol and switch to gas between 5 seconds and 3 mins after start up depending on engine coolant temperature.
It has the best injectors of any system which are linear flow and the closest you can get to the quality and flow characteristics of a petrol injector.
The ECU and the way in which it is programmed/mapped is also much different than any other system which means that it maintains the mixtures so closely that performance will never suffer and engine longevity will not even be affected.
Coupled with an upper cylinder lubricant system and you will be assured of no issues.

[gruntas]

Do you know of anyone in Perth selling this system.
The price is about $1000 dollars better than any quote I have for an injection system over here.

[Qwerty]

Yeah another one for Perth this side.

What sort of warranty comes with it? particularly if an engine goes bang.

[toyboata]

Unfortunately I don't know of anyone in Perth to fit this system but I will ask my supplier if he has anyone over there, I'm sure he will.
There is a 3yr/100,000km warranty on parts of the system.
Extended engine warranties can be purchased from 3rd party warranty suppliers for around $300 which covers up to about $10k in engine repairs in event of gas system failure....that said I've honestly never ever seen an engine suffer any damage after having a quality system like this fitted by a qualified and competent installer.
With system of this high quality the majority of problems that may ever be experienced are usually due to shit installation and tuning/setup by incompetent fitters.

[Gijo1977]

Thanks for the excellent info Toyboata! I have sent a quote form through

[Qwerty]

As far as I can guage, with gas (in wa anyway) hitting nearly $1, you use more litres of gas per km than petrol ... and it costing between $3k and $5k for the LPG installs (rebate is jack all) ... it takes a many number of years before the system even pays itself off (even then, laying out all your own money (instead of it being used for something else) has a hidden cost too)

Not to mention you lose capacity of your spare wheel carrier (relocate it = most costs).

I'm yet to find sense in forking out the coin for LPG conversion.

If anything, a long range tank (simply so ive got better range, not a cost excercise).

[gruntas]

I agree Querty, with gas nearly 1 buck and rebate dropping can't see the value.
Oh well enjoy the Petrol power while we still have some.

[Qwerty]

Love the V6 (for stuff I do), more torque than D4D and of course lots more killerwasps. Smooth as silk, bloody strong reliable engine.

Was screaming up and down dunes in low 2nd / 3rd on weekend ... V8 TD's (brand new gxl ute) and 3.0TD luxes could not match! .. .their owners (my mates) were having a bit of a shit fit (and they been 4wd'ing for decade or more, me only 6 months).

[toyboata]

For anyone considering this on the V6, a good example vehicle is the distributor of the PRINS system drives an 06 SR5 which has so far done 305,000km since fitting the LPG. He has had no valve seat issues and has not run any upper cylinder lubrication since installation.
The economy was pretty surprising with average consumption round town of 8L per 100km on petrol and only 9L per 100km in LPG.

LPG prices will drop back down. The market price is so high now because of very high demand in Europe and Asia due to the extremely cold winter(so they say).